Hitler: Operation Myth...

[A Narrator]

Is Hitler wel gestorven in 1945?
Heeft hij wel zelfmoord gepleegd zoals de Geschiedenis boeken zeggen?
Is hij de Berlijnse Bunker niet in de laatste dagen ontvlucht?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hitler, Stalin, and "Operation Myth"
An exhibit titled "The Agony of the Third Reich: Retribution," which opened last April at the Russian State Archives in Moscow, celebrates the 55th anniversary of the Red Army's capture of Berlin and victory over Nazi Germany. On display are such trophies as Adolph Hitler's and Josef Goebbels' personal papers, Martin Bormann's diary, the surrender agreement ending the Soviet-German war, several of the Führer's uniforms, and a blood-stained section of the sofa where Hitler shot himself after swallowing a cyanide ampoule. The artifacts are from the State Archives as well as the holdings of the Foreign Ministry and the Russian Federal Security Service (FSB).


Hitler's Skull?
The centerpiece of the exhibit is a fragment of a human skull measuring about 3 x 4 inches, approximately the size of a hand. The fragment has jagged edges and a bullet hole on one side. It is one of four such fragments that a Red Army soldier found in a bomb crater turned into a makeshift grave in the garden of Hitler's Reichskanzelei (Imperial Chancellery) in Berlin. Russia's chief archivist says he is "99.9 percent" certain the fragment was once part of Adolph Hitler's cranium.

The Russian curators apparently do not lack a sense of irony. One of the displays is an interrogation report from an SS officer who served as Hitler's adjutant. In it, the SS man claims that Hitler ordered him to burn his mortal remains because he did not want to end up on display in the Soviet Union. So in a way the Russians had the last laugh, thwarting what may have been the Führer's final order.

Lord Dacre, better known as former Oxford professor Hugh Trevor-Roper and the author of Hitler's Last Days, called the exhibit "sordid." Macabre might be a better word. Ostensibly, it celebrates Russia's VE Day, which falls on the 9th of May, the official opening date. But the actual opening date, 30 April, was--not by coincidence--the anniversary of Hitler's suicide in the Führerbunker located beneath the garden of the bombed-out Reichskanzelei, once the seat of the Nazi government. By exhibiting the skull fragments and other Hitler memorabilia, the Russians are in effect finally exorcising the Führer's ghost and closing the books on one of the most bizarre Soviet intelligence operations of the Cold War--Operatsiya Mif (Operation Myth).8


The Hitler Myth
The Soviet government kept the Hitler file completely secret until 1968, when it revealed some of the truth--along with some deliberate distortions--in the West but not in the USSR. That was the year in which a journalist named Lev Bezymensky published the results of the official Soviet investigation into Hitler's death and two autopsies performed on the Nazi leader's remains.9 The book appeared in English in the United States and Britain, but not in Russian and not in the USSR. In 1993, the Yeltsin government granted access to the KGB's Mif files and released photographs of the skull fragments to a Russian and a British journalist. But their book also was published only in English and only in the United States and Britain.10 Now, thanks to the Moscow exhibit, foreigners will be able to examine artifacts that they may have heard about but were never allowed to see, while Russians will see for the first time objects and documents that they never knew existed.

By late March 1945, the Red Army had encircled Berlin and begun its final assault with a massive artillery shelling. The Germans' strong resistance, however, forced the Soviets to fight block by block and house by house before they raised the hammer-and-sickle ensign over the Reichstag. Stalin dispatched special "trophy brigades," organized by Smersh (military counterintelligence), to search for art and other valuables, official records and archives, and anything else of exceptional material and intelligence value. But the most prized trophy was Hitler himself, and selected Smershisti received extensive briefings on how to locate and identify the Führer. On 4 May, a unit attached to the 79th Rifle Corps of the Third Shock Army and under the command of Lt. Col. Ivan Klimenko discovered the badly charred remains of 11 humans and two animals (Hitler's dogs) in shallow graves--actually bomb craters--a few meters away from the entrance to the bunker, where Hitler and his entourage had taken refuge since March.

The badly burned bodies were taken to a clinic commandeered as a makeshift morgue in the north Berlin suburb of Buch, where a four-man military medical team headed by a physician with the improbable name of Dr. Faust Shkravaski concluded that Hitler's remains were among those found near the bunker. Shkravaski did not have much to work with, but there was enough left of Hitler's teeth, lower jaw, and dental work to make a positive identification. Odontological evidence collected from the office of Hitler's dentist, the dentist's assistant, and a dental technician who had made bridgework for the Führer formed the basis of the evidence. By 9 May, when the autopsies were completed, the Soviets knew that Hitler was dead.

Stalin and Operation Myth
But the one man whose opinion mattered the most--Josef Stalin--refused to accept the findings recorded in Shkravaski's forensic report. He dispatched his secret police chief, Lavrenty Beria, to Berlin to review the autopsy results and associated evidence and bring everything back to Moscow. (For reasons that remain unclear, however, Smersh had already removed and reburied the human and canine corpses that Shkravaski's team had examined, and refused to dig them up and turn them over to the secret police.) Stalin rejected the autopsy's conclusions out of hand.

Then, on 26 May, during a Kremlin meeting with President Roosevelt's chief adviser Harry Hopkins, and diplomats Averell Harriman and Charles (Chip) Bohlen, Stalin said that he believed Hitler had escaped from Berlin and was hiding in the West. Stalin was not making diplomatic small talk; he was launching a disinformation campaign that he had personally devised and directed.

The next version of this myth appeared in the 28 May edition of Time, which featured Hitler's portrait on its cover with a large cross through it. According to a certain "Pvt. Ivan Nikitin," a German SS officer had revealed under interrogation that he had heard Hitler ranting and raving about a coming conflict between the USSR and its western Allies once the war had concluded. (Hitler, in fact, anticipated the Cold War in a document known as "My Political Testament.") But, "Nikitin" claimed, Hitler said that as long as he was still alive the wartime alliance would remain intact. The world would have to be convinced that he was dead. Once the former allies found themselves in conflict, he would reappear and lead the German people to their final victory over Bolshevism. The same "Nikitin" claimed that behind an armoire in the bunker was a moveable concrete wall with a man-size hole in it. On the other side of the wall was a passageway leading to a tunnel where an army troop train was waiting to take Hitler and his entourage to safety.

Next, Stalin dispatched Andrei Vyshinsky, the notorious prosecutor in the Moscow show trials of the late 1930s, to Berlin to brief Marshal Georgy Zhukov on the new line on Hitler. (Zhukov said on record that he believed Hitler was dead.) The Soviet marshal was at the height of his fame and popularity, and had been called the greatest Russian commander since Suvorov. For Stalin, who feared and usually eliminated potential rivals, it was time to cut him down to size.11 At a 9 June press conference--the first since the Western press had been allowed into the Soviet-controlled city--Zhukov, with Vyshinsky at his side, offered a new version of Hitler's fate. The Führer's "present whereabouts are unknown," he said. Zhukov denied reports circulating in Berlin that the Soviets had found a corpse that "could be Hitler's." He added that: "Based on personal and official information, we can only say that Hitler had a chance to get away with his bride [Eva Braun, who married the Führer hours before they committed suicide]. Hitler could have flown out at the very last minute." Zhukov's "personal view" was that Hitler had taken refuge in Spain.

The new Soviet version went out over the press wires the next day, providing grist for hundreds if not thousands of Hitler sightings for many years to come. Vyshinsky then accompanied Zhukov to Frankfurt, where the marshal briefed Gen. Eisenhower on the new Soviet line. Eisenhower later told the press that he had changed his mind about Hitler and believed the Nazi dictator might still be alive.

In July Stalin acted again. At the Big Three summit in Potsdam, Germany, Stalin told US Secretary of State James F. Byrnes that he believed Hitler was living in Spain or Argentina. He repeated this in the presence of Adm. William D. Leahy, President Truman's military adviser. On other occasions, Stalin speculated that Hitler had made his way to Hamburg and left Germany for Japan on board a U-boat; or that he was hiding in Germany in the British occupation zone.

Operation Myth was officially launched in December 1945.12 Its mission was threefold: To (1) gather and review all records and forensic evidence collected during May-June 1945; (2) check and recheck interrogation reports from Hitler's bunker entourage; and (3) reconcile or explain inconsistencies and contradictions in the evidence. A commission chaired by the USSR's preeminent criminologist, Dr. Pytor Semenovsky, and controlled from behind the scenes by Beria, began by tearing up Shkravaski's autopsy and rejecting the evidence on which it was based. This gives some idea of what the commission's unstated purpose was: to produce a report that confirmed or at least was compatible with Stalin's belief that Hitler was--or at least might be--still alive. After reexamining all the evidence, the Semenovsky commission concluded it was "not...possible to arrive at a final conclusion" regarding Hitler. That may have been less decisive than Stalin wanted, but apparently it was as far as the scientists believed they could go in stretching the truth to please Stalin.

Above all, the brutal interrogation of witnesses demonstrated how obsessed Stalin was with finding proof that Hitler might be alive. Smersh detained some 800 (!) persons, and 21 of 35 key witnesses were arrested and interrogated in Berlin and Moscow--often repeatedly and brutally. Some of the witnesses were imprisoned for 10 years or more on trumped up war crimes charges. The Soviets went to great lengths to locate Hitler's relatives. They even arrested his half-sister, a simple Austrian peasant woman whom Hitler had last seen in 1907, as well as her husband and a half-brother Hitler had never even laid eyes on. The focus of the endless interrogations, which filled tens of thousands of pages, was to prove that Hitler could have survived and that the people he spent his last days with had engaged in a systematic deception to convince the world otherwise.

The Smershisti tried to beat confessions out of their prisoners. Heinz Linge, Hitler's valet, was stripped, tied down, and then beaten with whips as his German-speaking interrogators shouted: "Hitler is alive! Hitler is alive!" Two other key witnesses, Hitler's SS adjutant Otto Günsche, and the Führer's personal pilot, Hans Baur, reported similar experiences after returning home in 1956. In Baur's case, interrogators spent hours trying to force him to admit that it had been possible for Hitler to fly out of the Berlin inferno. Witnesses were forced to write and rewrite their accounts of the final days in the bunker. The Soviets even partially reconstructed the bunker and, using mannequins, had witnesses reenact Hitler's and Eva Braun's suicides. Tables and charts were used to plot testimonies against one another in an effort to identify inconsistencies as well as corroborating information.

Imprisoning Hitler's entourage was not aimed so much at uncovering the truth as concealing it. Other steps were taken in the same direction. Stalin ordered that the human and animal remains found in Berlin be hidden. (Strangely, he did not demand their return to Moscow, where they presumably would have been of value to Semenovsky's team.) The Smershisti buried the remains first in Rathenow, then in Stendal. In February 1946, in Magdeburg, the remains were finally buried in the courtyard of an apartment house commandeered by the Red Army. There they remained until April 1970, when KGB chief Yuri Andropov, with Politburo approval, ordered Meropriyatiya Arkhiv (Measure or Operation Archive). Under the guise of searching for long-lost Nazi records, a KGB team excavated what was by then a garage on a Soviet military base and removed the remains of nine persons, including Hitler and Eva Braun. (The base was about to be turned over to the East German government.) The remains, now a "jellied mass" according to a KGB report, were pulverized, soaked in gasoline, and then completely burned up. The ashes were mixed with coal particles and then taken 11 kilometers north of Magdeburg, where they were dumped into the Bideriz, a tributary of the Elbe river.


Hitler Is Alive and Well and Living In...
Why did Stalin go to such lengths to deceive the West while trying to convince himself that Hitler could still be alive? The short answer is: no one knows. Some historians believe that the Soviet dictator wanted to send Western intelligence services on a never-ending wild-goose chase. Whether that was his purpose or not, that in fact is what happened. For 30 years the FBI investigated every report it received regarding Hitler sightings or claims that the Führer was still alive. (A 734-page file of such reports is available on the Internet.) The Bureau conducted its own 11-year probe into the possibility that Hitler had escaped and was still alive. Other historians maintain that Stalin manipulated the Hitler myth to put the onus on the West for "hiding" the German dictator and protecting Nazi war criminals or that he wanted to use rumors that Hitler was in Spain to settle an old score with Franco and avenge the communist defeat in the Spanish Civil War.

Some historians have focused on the Hitler myth to question whether Stalin was rational.13 A clever, cunning, and malicious Stalin might have misled and lied to his top aides and wartime allies for some inexplicable political or psychological purpose and still have been rational. But the fantastic effort carried out under the rubric of Mif suggests something else--that Stalin was trying to bend the evidence to conform to his own distorted version of reality. Here Stalin was not attempting to mislead someone else but was trying to prove his own delusion--or at least destroy the evidence that contradicted it.

None of this would have occurred if there had been a corpus delecti. Or would it have? Even with a corpse in better condition at hand, would Stalin have buried and reburied the body, as he did the remains, to cover up the evidence of Hitler's death?

What about the skull fragments? The first autopsy noted that a piece of the cranium was missing.14 In early 1946, a Smersh unit sent to search the area where Hitler's remains had been found discovered the fragments, and apparently they fit the skull that had been examined in Buch. We do not know when or how the skull fragments reached Moscow. We do know that they were stored in the NKVD/KGB/FBS archives and that their existence was not revealed until 1995--and then only in the West, and not in Russia until this past April! Today, just as in 1945, the skull fragments may hold the final answer. Genetic testing should be able to determine once and for all whether they are the missing pieces of Hitler's cranium. Some of Hitler's closest relatives disappeared into Stalin's Gulag, but others, including several of his closest relatives living in the United States, survived.15 The Russian government, however, cannot afford expensive test procedures, although it is willing to let someone else pick up the tab. So far, no one has offered to do so. In the final analysis, this lack of interest in Hitler and the end of the Third Reich, while disappointing to historians, may not be a bad thing.


Benjamin Fischer,
CIA History Staff



Misschien is het waar en is Hitler niet gestorven in Berlijn. Natuurlijk blijft het nu alleen maar gissen, want aangezien Hitler leed aan de ziekte van Parkinson en veel last had van stres denk ik dat hij het jaar 1960 nog niet had gehaald.

Wellicht is een kleine samenvatting mogelijk?

[A Narrator]

Reverend schreef op 05-12-2004 @ 12:28 :
Wellicht is een kleine samenvatting mogelijk?

Omadat jij het bent.

Hitler: Operation Myth...

Tot 1968 is dit dossier volledig geheim gehouden door de Soviet-Unie. Hieruit bleek dat de KGB lang is blijven doorzoeken naar de gevallen leider van het Derde Rijk. Stalin weigerde te geloven dat Hitler echt dood was en bleef op zoek naar Der Fuhrer tot zijn eigen dood.
De vraag is dus:
Is Hitler niet in 1945 gestorven? Wat is er dan met hem gebeurd? Was hij in Rusland? Ergens ondergedoken met andere Nazis? Of in Antartica?

[Bloedpropje]

Ik heb alleen de samenvatting gelezen.

Ik vind het begrijpelijk dat Stalin verder heeft gezocht maar ik denk dat Hitler gewoon zelfmoord heeft gepleegd. Hij had de oorlog verloren, zijn doel was mislukt, ik denk niet dat hij voor zijn eigen gevoel nog een reden had om verder te leven.

[Snuitermans]

Gespleten Geest schreef op 05-12-2004 @ 12:59 :
Ik heb alleen de samenvatting gelezen.

Ik vind het begrijpelijk dat Stalin verder heeft gezocht maar ik denk dat Hitler gewoon zelfmoord heeft gepleegd. Hij had de oorlog verloren, zijn doel was mislukt, ik denk niet dat hij voor zijn eigen gevoel nog een reden had om verder te leven.

+1.

Of misschien heeft de snorremans nu nog steeds evil plannen.

[Lajo]

Dan zou Hij nu ongeveer 110 jaar oud zijn...

Ach ja, wat maakt het uit. Nu is-ie in ieder geval dood.

[Daevrem]

Juist. Nu is hij dood en naar 1945 hebben we niets meer van hem gehoord.

Trouwens, als hij nog wel levend was lijkt het me dat de Mossad hard naar hem gezocht heeft.

Heb het hele stuk niet gelezen trouwens.

Of hij zit ergens verstopt in een grot, samen Met Bin Laden en Emmanuel Goldstein.

[Sartre]

Reverend schreef op 05-12-2004 @ 13:15 :
Of misschien heeft de snorremans nu nog steeds evil plannen.

Ik denk dat Stalin en Hitler dezelfde waren! En later is hij teruggekomen in de gedaante van Saddam Hussain.

Het is een wereldwijd complot van de snordragers! En mijn vader hoort er ook bij!

[Gornetsnoaker]

Lajo schreef op 05-12-2004 @ 13:25 :
Dan zou Hij nu ongeveer 110 jaar oud zijn...

Hij is onsterfelijk

[A Narrator]

Dit stuk gaat meer in op Hitler's ontsnapping:

I remember hearing, in the 1950s, rumors that Hitler had escaped to a secret Nazi base at the South Pole. In 1952, Dwight D. Eisenhower said: "We have been unable to unearth one bit of tangible evidence of Hitler's death. Many people believe that Hitler escaped from Berlin."

When President Truman asked Joseph Stalin at the Potsdam conference in 1945 whether or not Hitler was dead, Stalin replied bluntly, 'No.' Stalin's top army officer, Marshall Gregory Zhukov, whose troops were the ones to occupy Berlin, flatly stated after a long thorough investigation in 1945: "We have found no corpse that could be Hitler's."

The chief of the U.S. trial counsel at Nuremberg, Thomas J. Dodd, said: "No one can say he is dead." Major General Floyd Parks, who was commanding general of the U.S. sector in Berlin, stated for publication that he had been present when Marshall Zhukov described his entrance to Berlin, and Zhukov stated he believed Hitler might have escaped. Lt. Gen. Bedell Smith, Chief of Staff to Gen. Eisenhower in the European invasion and later Director of the CIA, stated publicly on Oct. 12, 1945, "No human being can say conclusively that Hitler is dead."

Col. W.J. Heimlich, former Chief, United States Intelligence, at Berlin, stated for publication that he was in charge of determining what had happened to Hitler and after a thorough investigation his report was: "There was no evidence beyond that of HEARSAY to support the THEORY of Hitler's suicide." He also stated, "On the basis of present evidence, no insurance company in America would pay a claim on Adolph Hitler."

Nuremberg judge Michael Mussmanno said in his book "Ten Days to Die," "Russia must accept much of the blame [to the extent that it still exists] that Hitler did not die in May 1945." However, Mussmanno STATED that he interviewed Hitler's personal waiter, his valet, his chauffeur, his two secretaries, pilots, top generals, etc., and they all 'agreed' perfectly that Hitler committed suicide. He said they could not have gotten together afterward and made up a story that agreed in perfect detail without one flaw anywhere, so they must be telling the truth and he was absolutely convinced that Hitler committed suicide. The story at first sounds convincing, until you realized that they could have memorized a story BEFOREHAND and these were all people who almost WORSHIPPED Hitler. Do witnesses EVER agree "perfectly" in detail in real life?

Former Secretary of State Jimmy Byrnes in his book "Frankly Speaking" [as quoted in the April 1948 "The Cross and The Flag"]: "While in Potsdam at the Conference of the Big Four, Stalin left his chair, came over and clinked his liquor glass with mine in a very friendly manner. I said to him: 'Marshal Stalin, what is your theory about the death of Hitler?' Stalin replied: "He is not dead. He escaped either to Spain or Argentina.'"

I still have the September, 1948, issue of a magazine called "The Plain Truth" with the headline article: "IS HITLER ALIVE, OR DEAD?," subtitled: "Here is summarized the conclusions of an exhaustive three-year investigation -- together with reasons for believing Hitler may be alive and secretly planning the biggest hoax of all history."

Another article in November, 1949, says "The Nazis went underground, May 16, 1943!" and details a meeting at the residence of Krupp von Bohlen-Halbach, the head of I.G. FARBEN, etc., at which they planned "FOR WORLD WAR III."
Another article in August, 1952, entitled "HITLER DID NOT DIE," subtitled "Adolph Hitler's fake suicide in his Berlin Bunker now is exposed as History's greatest hoax! Positive evidence comes to light that Hitler did not die -- here's new evidence that Hitler is alive, directing [the] Nazi underground, today!"

The June, 1952, issue of "The Plain Truth" is headlined: "HITLER 'May Be Alive!'" The article states: "Now, NEW FACTS, or purported facts, leak out. It's reported now that in 1940 the Nazis started to amass tractors, planes, sledges, gliders, and all sorts of machinery and materials IN THE SOUTH POLAR REGIONS -- that for the next 4 years Nazi technicians built, on an almost unknown CONTINENT, Antarctica, the Fuhrer's SHANGRILA -- a new Berchtesgaden."

The report says they scooped out an entire mountain, built a new refuge completely camouflaged -- a magic mountain hide-a-way. The recently discovered continent is larger than Europe -- 5,600 miles from Africa, 1,900 miles from the southern tip of South America, 4,800 miles from Australia.

It is NOT a mere ice-covered surface, but a real continent, with plains, valleys, mountain peaks up to 15,000 feet. The temperature in the interior is around zero (?) in the summer, and never drops below 20 or 30 degrees below in the winter. In other words, it is not as cold as in parts of North Dakota or Canada." (especially underground, where the natural temperature would be in the 50's, even below snow and ice. - Branton)

Hitler en Dönitz.

"Bonjour" magazine, the "Police Gazette," and the Paris newspaper "Le Monde" all had articles about Hitler's South Pole hideaway. Admiral Doenitz, in 1943, stated, "The German submarine fleet has even now established an earthly paradise, an impregnable fortress, for the Fuhrer, in whatever part of the world." Although he did not specify where the exact location was, "Bonjour" pointed out that in 1940 Nazi engineers had begun construction of buildings that were to withstand temperatures to 60 degrees below zero.

There have been strong rumors, from the end of the War, that Hitler escaped to the South Pole. Yet, most people simply REFUSE to believe the evidence, the idea that Hitler survived the war is just unacceptable! It is too upsetting to too many people!

There is plenty of PROOF that the Americans and Russians LIED about what happened to Hitler, and there are strong rumors that he escaped to Antarctica. There is ample proof that a major group of Nazis escaped to Argentina. What do YOU think? Why did Admiral Byrd lead an "invasion to Antarctica," and why the extreme secrecy about the whole situation?
In 1981, Donald McKale wrote "Hitler: The Survival Myth" to try to lay to rest the questions about what happened to Hitler. The flyleaf says: "In this book a distinguished historian examines the postwar world's most absorbing and persistent mystery, revealing why it has endured and where the mystery leads" [emphasis mine]. The back flyleaf says "Absolute certainty about what happened still eludes us today."

Just recently on TV there are STILL programs telling "at last, the final, once and for all, this is the real story" about what happened to Hitler, yet they all do not really answer the question. A recent TV program, called "What Really Happened to Adolph Hitler," after investigating numerous stories, ends by saying that, in spite of Glasnost and the new freedom of access to Russian files, the files on Hitler are still some of the most highly classified items of the Soviets.

The "Diario Illustrado" of Santiago, Chile, January 18, 1948 issue, said: "On 30th of April, 1945, Berlin was in dissolution but little of that dissolution was evident at Templehof Airfield. At 4:15 p.m. a JU52 landed and S.S. troops directly from Rechlin for the defense of Berlin disembarked, all of them young, not older than 18 years.

"The gunner in the particular plane was an engineer by the name of B... whom I had known for a number of years and for whom I had endeavored to get exemption from military service. He sought to tank up and leave Berlin as quickly as possible. During this re-fueling interval Mr. B... was suddenly elbowed in the ribs by his radio operator with a nod to look in a certain direction.
"At about 100-120 meters he saw a sleek Messerschmitt Jet Model 332 [an editorial comment says this should be an ARADO 234]. Mr. B.. and the radio operator saw, and WITHOUT ANY DOUBT WHATSOEVER, standing in front of the jet, their Commander in Chief, Adolf Hitler, dressed in field-grey uniform and gesticulating animatedly with some Party functionaries, who were obviously seeing him off.

"For about ten minutes whilst their plane was being refueled the two men observed this scene and around 4:30 p.m. they took to the air again. They were extremely astonished to hear during the midnight military news bulletin, some seven and a half hours later, that Hitler had committed suicide."

On a Canadian Broadcasting Corporation program called "As It Happens," September 17th, 1974 at 7:15 p.m., a Prof. Dr. Ryder Saguenay, oral surgeon from the Dental Faculty of the University of California at Los Angeles, said that Hitler had ordered a special plane to leave from Berlin with all medical and dental records, especially X-rays, of all top Nazis for an unknown destination. He said that the dental records used to identify Hitler's body were drawn from MEMORY by a dental assistant, WHO disappeared and was never found.

An editorial in "Zig Zag," Santiago, Chile, January 16, 1948, STATES that on April 30th, 1945, Flight Captain Peter Baumgart took Adolf Hitler, his wife Eva Braun, as well as a few loyal friends by plane from Tempelhof Airport to Tondern in Denmark [still German controlled]. From Tondern, they took another plane to Kristiansund in Norway [also German controlled]. From there they joined a SUBMARINE convoy. ["U.F.O. Letzte Geheimwaffe des III Reiches," Mattern, pp. 50-51.]

The Jewish writer Michael Bar-Zohar in "The Avengers," p. 99, said: "In 1943 Admiral Doenitz had declared: 'The German U-boat fleet is proud to have made an earthly paradise, an impregnable fortress for the Fuhrer, somewhere in the world.' He did not say in what part of the world it existed, but fairly obviously it was in South America."

The German writer Mattern said that Admiral Doenitz told a graduating class of naval cadets in Kiel in 1944: "The German Navy has still a great role to play in the future. The German Navy knows all hiding places for the Navy to take the Fuhrer to, should the need arise. There he can prepare his last measures in complete quiet."

[T_ID]

lol, als Hitler op het laatste moment nog weg had willen komen uit Berlijn had hij een brug over gemoeten die van alle kanten onder vuur kon worden genomen.

en was hij in een vliegtuig terecht gekomen dan had hij de gehele sovjetluchtmacht moeten ontlopen, en de geallieerde luchtmacht natuurlijk.

en daarna ook nog eens gevangenneming moeten voorkomen terwijl de resten van zijn derde rijk zich overgaven...


vast wel, tuurlijk...

broodje aapverhaal

[A Narrator]

Maar wel een interessant broodje aapverhaal.

[Nona]

Traudl Jung dacht er anders over (haar verhaal is verfilmd onder de titel 'Der Untergang', nu in de bioscoop. Raad eens waar ik gisteren was. )

[forumfreakie]

Daevrem schreef op 05-12-2004 @ 15:50 :
Juist. Nu is hij dood en naar 1945 hebben we niets meer van hem gehoord.

Trouwens, als hij nog wel levend was lijkt het me dat de Mossad hard naar hem gezocht heeft.

Heb het hele stuk niet gelezen trouwens.

Of hij zit ergens verstopt in een grot, samen Met Bin Laden en Emmanuel Goldstein.

Ja en Bob Marley en Elvis

[McCaine]

Hij had ook moeilijk kunnen wegvliegen naar god weet waar terwijl de Geallieerden absolute luchtsuperioriteit bezaten van Noorwegen tot Zuid-Afrika. Zoveel bereik hadden Messerschmitt-modellen niet.

[A Narrator]

Ik vind dit wel interessant:

At about 100-120 meters he saw a sleek Messerschmitt Jet Model 332 [an editorial comment says this should be an ARADO 234]. Mr. B.. and the radio operator saw, and WITHOUT ANY DOUBT WHATSOEVER, standing in front of the jet, their Commander in Chief, Adolf Hitler, dressed in field-grey uniform and gesticulating animatedly with some Party functionaries, who were obviously seeing him off.

Misschien toch gevlucht in een vliegtuig.
Vergeet niet dat de Messerschmitt Jets een groter bereik hadden en hij was ook veel sneller en wenbaarder dan enig Geallieerd model. Het enige Messerschmitt model dat moeilijkheden had met zijn bereik was de BF-109.

[Last_Mohican]

Hitler wilde niet vluchten , hij wilde niet nog een onderdoen zoals duitsland dat had ondergaan in 1918. Lang dacht hij zelfs nog in Berlijn dat commandant Mencke die het gebied rond de Elbe verdedigde tegen de bolsjevieken, terug zou komen om Berlijn te ontdoen van de Rode Legereenheden. aangezien hij daarp wachtte, brak het Rode Leger door tot de FriedrichstraBe ezo'n paar km van Alexanderplatz, waar de bunker gevestigd was. Op dat moment kreeg hij te horen dat Menckes leger uitgeroeid en gevlucht was. Zijn laatste onzinnige hoop ging ten onder en om toen nog te lvuchten was onmogelijk, aangezien de Russen Berlijn zo omsingeld hadden dat soms zelfs burgers die probeerden uit te breken eraan moesten geloven. maar misschien knepen ze wel een oogje toe om Hitler te laten passeren, lijkt mij ook heel realistisch.. Nee, Hitler heeft zichzelf een gat door zijn nek geblazen, samen met eva Braun en de lijken die uitgebrand waren gevonden zijn del ijken van Gitler en Braun en niet van anderen.
Eichmann wist echter wel te ontsnappen tot 1960, met hulp van het Vaticaan, dus helemaal uitgesloten is het niet, maar het is echt een miniem precentage dat Hitler sowieso al gevlucht zou zijn.
En het is iig ook beter zo, dat ranzige fascisme willen we ook neit terugzien lijkt me, alhoewel.. nee.. Verdonk zou het maar al te graag willen terugzien en met haar een hoop anderen, die mensen hebben nix geleerd van het verleden

maar check Der Untergang , dat getuigt volgens mij geneog over dit topic.Superfilm trouwens..

[professor2]

het is simpel de russen hadden een lijk hij kon echter alleen worden geidentificeert aan zijn tanden want dat waren de enige levende mensen om hitler heen die ze hadden meegenomen
het was dus niet 100.000% zeker
en dat STalin extreem paranoide was wisten wel al

[A Narrator]

N4Poleon schreef op 08-12-2004 @ 21:31 :
Hitler wilde niet vluchten , hij wilde niet nog een onderdoen zoals duitsland dat had ondergaan in 1918. Lang dacht hij zelfs nog in Berlijn dat commandant Mencke die het gebied rond de Elbe verdedigde tegen de bolsjevieken, terug zou komen om Berlijn te ontdoen van de Rode Legereenheden. aangezien hij daarp wachtte, brak het Rode Leger door tot de FriedrichstraBe ezo'n paar km van Alexanderplatz, waar de bunker gevestigd was. Op dat moment kreeg hij te horen dat Menckes leger uitgeroeid en gevlucht was. Zijn laatste onzinnige hoop ging ten onder en om toen nog te lvuchten was onmogelijk, aangezien de Russen Berlijn zo omsingeld hadden dat soms zelfs burgers die probeerden uit te breken eraan moesten geloven. maar misschien knepen ze wel een oogje toe om Hitler te laten passeren, lijkt mij ook heel realistisch.. Nee, Hitler heeft zichzelf een gat door zijn nek geblazen, samen met eva Braun en de lijken die uitgebrand waren gevonden zijn del ijken van Gitler en Braun en niet van anderen.
Eichmann wist echter wel te ontsnappen tot 1960, met hulp van het Vaticaan, dus helemaal uitgesloten is het niet, maar het is echt een miniem precentage dat Hitler sowieso al gevlucht zou zijn.
En het is iig ook beter zo, dat ranzige fascisme willen we ook neit terugzien lijkt me, alhoewel.. nee.. Verdonk zou het maar al te graag willen terugzien en met haar een hoop anderen, die mensen hebben nix geleerd van het verleden

maar check Der Untergang , dat getuigt volgens mij geneog over dit topic.Superfilm trouwens..

Ik heb deze topic gemaakt de dag voordat ik Der Untergang heb gezien in de bioscoop en ik kreeg toen ook het gevoel dat deze theorie waarschijnlijk niet waar is. Maar het is het wel waard om over na te denken natuurlijk.
Maar wat nou als al die verhalen van Hitler's Bunker nou gewoon niet waar zijn? Dat alles wat word verteld door die zogenaamde ooggetuigen nou gewoonweg niet waar is? Wat dan?

[Stff]

A Narrator schreef op 08-12-2004 @ 19:33 :
Ik vind dit wel interessant:

At about 100-120 meters he saw a sleek Messerschmitt Jet Model 332 [an editorial comment says this should be an ARADO 234]. Mr. B.. and the radio operator saw, and WITHOUT ANY DOUBT WHATSOEVER, standing in front of the jet, their Commander in Chief, Adolf Hitler, dressed in field-grey uniform and gesticulating animatedly with some Party functionaries, who were obviously seeing him off.

Misschien toch gevlucht in een vliegtuig.
Vergeet niet dat de Messerschmitt Jets een groter bereik hadden en hij was ook veel sneller en wenbaarder dan enig Geallieerd model. Het enige Messerschmitt model dat moeilijkheden had met zijn bereik was de BF-109.

dit klopt dus niet, zoals er staat is het geen messerschmitt vliegtuig, maar ARANDO 234 (kende dit vliegtuig niet maar heb ff opgezocht)


naar mijn mening was de geallieerde Mustang echt wel in staat om dit vliegtuig bij te houden en zo niet vergeet dan niet dat ze, als ze naar de zuid pool zijn gevlogen, over half europa moesten en over half afrika waar de geallieerde ook aanwezig waren

[Last_Mohican]

A Narrator schreef op 09-12-2004 @ 19:29 :
Ik heb deze topic gemaakt de dag voordat ik Der Untergang heb gezien in de bioscoop en ik kreeg toen ook het gevoel dat deze theorie waarschijnlijk niet waar is. Maar het is het wel waard om over na te denken natuurlijk.
Maar wat nou als al die verhalen van Hitler's Bunker nou gewoon niet waar zijn? Dat alles wat word verteld door die zogenaamde ooggetuigen nou gewoonweg niet waar is? Wat dan?

mmmm... ja, heb je wel n beetje gelijk in.. maar dan lijkt me n vlucht per Uboot logischer.... t is iig wel een interessant complot, nou een erg gevaarlijk complot asl het waar is.. maar dan zou hij nu al dood moeten zijn...

[A Narrator]

Stff schreef op 09-12-2004 @ 22:45 :
dit klopt dus niet, zoals er staat is het geen messerschmitt vliegtuig, maar ARANDO 234 (kende dit vliegtuig niet maar heb ff opgezocht)

[afbeelding]
naar mijn mening was de geallieerde Mustang echt wel in staat om dit vliegtuig bij te houden en zo niet vergeet dan niet dat ze, als ze naar de zuid pool zijn gevlogen, over half europa moesten en over half afrika waar de geallieerde ook aanwezig waren

De Arado bedoel je. Dat was de grote broer van de Messerschmitt: Me 262 straaljager. Ze maakte gebruik van dezelfde motor. En een Mustang zou nooit of te nimmer dezelfde snelheid kunnen behalen als de Arado en dat niet alleen de Arado kon zo hoog vliegen dat hij vrijwel onzichtbaar en ongrijpbaar was voor vijanden.

[Stff]

A Narrator schreef op 10-12-2004 @ 21:53 :
De Arado bedoel je. Dat was de grote broer van de Messerschmitt: Me 262 straaljager. Ze maakte gebruik van dezelfde motor. En een Mustang zou nooit of te nimmer dezelfde snelheid kunnen behalen als de Arado en dat niet alleen de Arado kon zo hoog vliegen dat hij vrijwel onzichtbaar en ongrijpbaar was voor vijanden.

dacht keertje ergens gelezen te hebben dat als een Mustang in een duikvlucht de ME262 kon bijhouden, maar daar heb je niks aan als de Arado al stukken hoger vliegt

[A Narrator]

Stff schreef op 11-12-2004 @ 15:17 :
dacht keertje ergens gelezen te hebben dat als een Mustang in een duikvlucht de ME262 kon bijhouden, maar daar heb je niks aan als de Arado al stukken hoger vliegt

Een duikvlucht ja. Maar een Stuka was ook sneller als hij een duikvlucht maakte want hij ging recht naar beneden. Verticaal kon de Mustang een Me 262 wel inhalen maar horizontaal is een heel ander verhaal.