22 maart demonstratie

[Rafael]

Die wordt dus echt groot. Kom je ook?

[*Burning water*]

Zoek en gij zult een soortgelijk topic vinden

[red_and_black]

ik probeer zeker te komen!

maar moet werken = ziekmelden!

de wereld gaat voor!

[Rafael]

Er zijn nog wat topics hierover inderdaad, maar het lijkt me handig om zowel een topic te hebben pro of contra oorlog als een topic over (het nut van) demonstreren en aanverwante zaakjes. Die tweede is dus hier.

[*Burning water*]

Rafael schreef op 18-03-2003 @ 14:56:
Er zijn nog wat topics hierover inderdaad, maar het lijkt me handig om zowel een topic te hebben pro of contra oorlog als een topic over (het nut van) demonstreren en aanverwante zaakjes. Die tweede is dus hier.

Jaha, maar die is er al!

[MissCzechMeOut]

nee, denk dat het al te laat is dan.

[fakie01]

idd, beetje laat denk je niet?

[Escapism]

dan moet je juist gaan

dat zal werken, oorlog begint overmorgen al?

[Rocksaan]

ik kom ook

[Snowbell]

Ze gaan al aanvallen.... volgens mij werken jullie plannetjes niet helemaal of zit ik nu verkeerd?

P.S. Waarom niet demonstreren voor oorlog?

[naam onbekend]

Juist als de oorlog dan al bezig is, is het goed een tegengeluid te laten horen. Demonstraties tegen de Vietnam-oorlog begonnen immers ook pas toen die oorlog al enige jaren bezig was. Laat die Amerikanen maar horen dat niet ineens alle kritiek is verstomd, laat ze maar horen dat we het er nog steeds niet mee eens zijn!

Ik kom zeker.

[moon]

ik kom!!

[PV]

Nee

[Joostje]

DeltaOne schreef op 18-03-2003 @ 17:53:
dat zal werken, oorlog begint overmorgen al?

och, de vietnam oorlog is jarten nadat hijwas begonnen gestopt onder meer dankzij massale protesten

PV schreef op 18-03-2003 @ 21:40:
Nee

[Rafael]

Zijn jullie gek geworden? Ik begrijp dat je een maand geleden niet wilde komen omdat de oorlog toen nog vermeden kon worden. Nu is juist het moment! Balkenende is voor het steunen van oorlog en Verhagen van het CDA sluit geeneens uit dat NL militaire steun levert. Als je iets goedkeurt ben je in mijn ogen schuldig, en nu is niet alleen Balkenende schuldig, maar heel Nederland omdat wij lafjes thuisblijven omdat je denkt dat het toch niks veranderd. Tienduizenden mensen zullen worden afgemaakt en jij bent te beroerd om een middagje in de zon door de stad te wandelen om aan te geven dat Balkenende dit in ieder geval niet namens jou doet.

Ik begrijp dat jullie de zestig jaar oude Nederlandse traditie in ere willen houden je bek te houden en stilzwijgend mee te werken aan de grofste misdaden, maar ik ben dat niet van plan.

Wanneer bij een toekomstige terroristische aanslag in Nederland duizend mensen worden vermoord die het niet erg vonden dat duizenden kinderen werden afgeslacht terwijl zij met een zak chips op schoot en een biertje in de hand toekeken, vraag ik me af of al die burgers onschuldig waren

[Insane Juggalo]

Joostje schreef op 18-03-2003 @ 22:07:
och, de vietnam oorlog is jarten nadat hijwas begonnen gestopt onder meer dankzij massale protesten

En die protesten waren zo verkeerd. De Amerikanen vochten ook in Vietnam al voor de democratie. Ze probeerden te voorkomen dat Vietnam in handen van de communisten zou vallen. Als je achteraf ziet wat de communisten aangericht hebben in de wereld was dit een nobel streven.

[Joostje]

*The effect of defoliants like Agent Orange, that was sprayed by U.S. planes to destroy jungle hiding places and vegetation of enemy lines is still felt by some Vietnamese and U.S. soldiers. Vietnam’s Government estimates that there are 1 million victims of Agent Orange among its 76 million people, including war veterans (Associated Press). According to Public health researchers during the Environmental Conference on Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam, those Vietnamese and their descendants who were exposed to Agent Orange still stand the risk of cancer, chloracne and birth defects. Paul Alexander, in an article published on the effects of Agent Orange reports, "A U.S. Air Force Study released in March 29 revealed the strongest evidence to date of a connection between exposure to Agent Orange and diabetes and possibly heart disease (Paul Alexander). Just as war affects life and physical health, it also has a negative effect on the emotional stability of the mind. (http://students.pepperdine.edu/ayarthur/casualties.htm)

*The number of deaths that occurred during the Vietnam War alone is staggering. The Vietnamese lost 3.8 million and the United States lost 58,000, according to McNamara.

of nog beter:

Second Indochina War (1960-75)
Vietnam War: Most historians of the Second Indochina War concern themselves primarily with the American Phase of the conflict, 1965-73; however, many do not specify whether their estimated death tolls cover only this phase of the war or the whole thing. An asterisk(*) indicates that the number seems to cover the entire conflict rather than just the American Phase, but check the "Sources" section to see exactly which years are covered by each authority:
South Vietnam military: 185,000 to 225,000 (Britannica) or 220,357 (Lewy) or 223,748 (Summers) or 224,000 (Kutler, Olson) or 250,000 (Clodfelter, Grenville*) or 254,257 (Wallechinsky*) or 650,000 (Small & Singer) [MEDIAN: 224,000]
North Vietnamese military and Viet Cong: 500,000 (S&S) or 660,000 (Olson) or 666,000 (Lewy, with the possibility that as many as 222,000 (1/3) of these were actually SVN civilians mistaken for VC) or 666,000 (Summers) or 700,000-1,000,000 (Wallechinsky*) or 900,000 (Britannica; Grenville*) or 1,000,000 (Clodfelter) or 1,100,000 (Tucker* 1954-75, citing an official 1995 announcement by Hanoi) [MEDIAN: ca. 850,000]
South Vietnamese civilians: 250,000 (Olson) or 287,000 (Clodfelter = 247,600 war deaths + 38,954 assassinated by NLF) or 300,000 (Kutler; Summers) or 340,000 (Lewy's estimate, with the possibility that an additional 222,000 counted as VC (above) belong in this category) or 430,000 (The Sen. E. Kennedy Commission, according to Lewy, Olson) or 522,000 (Wallechinsky*) or 1,000,000 (Britannica [in both North and South]; Eckhardt; Grenville*) or 2,000,000 (Tucker* [N&S, 1954-75] citing an official 1995 announcement by Hanoi) [MEDIAN: ca. 385,000]
North Vietnamese civilians: 65,000 (Kutler, Lewy, Olson, Summers, Wallechinsky) by American bombing.
USA: 58,000 (Britannica) or 58,153 (Wallechinsky*) or 58,159 (Kutler) or 47,244 KIA + 10,446 other = 57,690 (Olson, Summers, 1961-80) or 56,146 (Lewy: 46,498 KIA + 10,388 other + 719 MIA) or 56,000 (S&S)
South Korea: 4,407 (Lewy, Olson, Summers); 4,687 (Wallechinsky); 5,000 (S&S)
Philippines: 1,000 (S&S)
Thailand: 351 (Lewy, Olson, Summers, Wallechinsky); 1,000 (S&S)
Australia: 469 (Lewy, Summers, Olson [w/NZ]); 492 (S&S); 494 (Wallechinsky); 520 (AWM)
TOTAL: 1,216,000 (military only, S&S) or 1,312,000 (Summers) or 1,353,000 (Lewy) or 1,520,453 (WHPSI: S. Vietnamese only, 1965-75) or 1,637,000 (Olson) or 1,721,000 (Kutler) or 1,749,000 (Wallechinsky*) or 1,800,000 (B&J, 1960-75) or 2,058,000 (Eckhardt) or 2,163,000 (Britannica) or 2,500,000 (Grenville*) or 3,000,000 (1965-75, Chomsky* (1987)) or >3,100,000 (Tucker*)
Misc. Atrocities:
Lewy:
36,725 civilians assassinated by VC/NVA, 1957-72
2,800 civilians executed and 3,000 missing after Hue was captured by VC/NVA, 1968
400 civilians massacred by USAns in the area of Son My village, incl. 175-200 in My Lai hamlet, 1968
Because of the lack of weapons recovered from many bodies, Lewy considers the possibility that up to 222,000 VC KIA may have actually been innocent bystanders. (Or maybe not. Poor evidence either way.)
Harff & Gurr: 475,000 civilians in NLF areas were victims of repressive politicide, 1965-72
Young: Hue massacre, 1968:
Officially: 2,800-5,700
Len Ackland: 300-400
Chomsky (1987): 21,000 VC civilian officials assassinated under US/GVN Phoenix project (-in text. Endnote gives estimates ranging 40-48,000.). Lewy considers these to be (mostly) legitimate military targets.
Rummel:
90,000 democides by South Vietnam:
1954-63: 39,000, incl. 24,000 dead in forced resettlement programs
1963-75: 51,000, incl. 30,000 executions
166,000 democides by NVN/VC in SVN:
Officials assassinated: 17,000
Civilians assassinated: 49,000
Refugees killed, 1975: 50,000
Misc: 50,000
In addition to the American Phase of the War, there are four tangental conflicts which are sometimes discussed as part of the Vietnam War, but usually considered peripheral:
Vietnamese Civil War, internal phase, 1960-65
Clodfelter, 1961-64
South Vietnam, military: 21,442
Communist: 71,000
Civilian: 160,000
TOTAL: 252,442
Chomsky (1987):
1957-61: 66,000 VC (p.274, citing B. Fall), 80,000 Vietnamese (p.323)
1961-4/65: 89,000 VC
to mid 1966: 60,000 ("enemy" (McNamara) - "probably" including civilians (Chomsky))
Total, 1954-65: 160-170,000 VNese (p.324)
S&S: 300,000 battle deaths, 1960-65
Eckhardt: 200,000 civ. + 100,000 mil. = 300,000 (1960-65)
Young: NLF lost 100,000 dead 1961-(?)64
WHPSI:
21,686 deaths by political violence in South Vietnam, 1960-64
4,021 from 1955 to 1959
Cambodian Civil War (1970-75)
Chomsky (1987): half a million to a million.
Rummel, 1954-75:
War Dead: 429,000
Democide: 288,000
TOTAL: 717,000
Tucker: 10% of 7M, which comes to 700,000
Clodfelter; also Wallechinsky (1970-75)
Cambodian govt.: 50,000
Total violent deaths, incl. Comm. and civ.: >250,000
Total war-related deaths, incl. hunger: 600,000
T. Lomperis, From People's War to People's Rule (1996), citing a Finnish commission: 600,000
Chirot: 500,000
B&J: 300,000
SIPRI 1989: 156,000
S&S, 1970-73
Cambodia: 150,000
USA: 500
SVietnam: 5,000
NVietnam: 500
TOTAL: 156,000
Eckhardt: 156,000
WHPSI: 55,750 k. by pol.viol., 1970-75
Laos
Wallechinsky, 1959-75: 250,000
Martin Stuart-Fox A History of Laos: 200,000 by 1973, incl. 30,000 Hmong.
Rummel, 1954-75:
War Dead: 32,000
Democide: 38,000
TOTAL: 70,000
Eckhardt: 12,000 civ. + 12,000 mil. = 24,000 (1960-73)
S&S, 1960-73
Laos: 5,000 (1960-62), 15,000 (1963-73)
USA: 500
NVietnam: 3,000
TOTAL: 23,500
WHPSI: 22,355 k. by pol.viol., 1963-72
T. Lomperis, From People's War to People's Rule (1996): 20,000 Meo irregulars and 15,000 Royal Lao Army
Harff & Gurr: 18-20,000 Meo tribemen were victims of genocide, 1963-65
Vietnamese Civil War, final phase, 1973-75
Young, citing Pentagon estimates:
ARVN: 26,500 (1973) + 30,000 (1974)
PRG/DRV: 39,000 (1973) + 61,000 (1974)
Civilians: 15,000
TOTAL: 171,500 killed in the "Cease-Fire War".
Sources:
Britannica: not specified, but the implication is that the statistics cover the entire war.
Clodfelter, Michael, Vietnam in Military Statistics (1995)
Eckhardt: covers the years 1965-75 (unless otherwise noted)
Grenville: does not specify which years are covered, but by context, it seems to be 1960-75
Kutler, Stanley: Encyclopedia of the Vietnam War (1996)
Lewy, Guenter, America in Vietnam (1978): Lewy's estimates cover the years 1965-74. (u.o.n.)
Olson, James: Dictionary of the Vietnam War (1988): covers the years 1965-74 (u.o.n.)
Summers, Harry: Vietnam War Almanac (1985)
Tucker, Spencer, Encyclopedia of the Vietnam War (1998)
Wallechinsky: death tolls apparently cover the years 1957-75. (u.o.n.)
Young, Marilyn, The Vietnam Wars: 1945-1990 (1991)

Kun je aangeven hoeveel doden zijn gekomen door het communistische regime?

[Insane Juggalo]

Joostje schreef op 19-03-2003 @ 11:11:
*The effect of defoliants like Agent Orange, that was sprayed by U.S. planes to destroy jungle hiding places and vegetation of enemy lines is still felt by some Vietnamese and U.S. soldiers. Vietnam’s Government estimates that there are 1 million victims of Agent Orange among its 76 million people, including war veterans (Associated Press). According to Public health researchers during the Environmental Conference on Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam, those Vietnamese and their descendants who were exposed to Agent Orange still stand the risk of cancer, chloracne and birth defects. Paul Alexander, in an article published on the effects of Agent Orange reports, "A U.S. Air Force Study released in March 29 revealed the strongest evidence to date of a connection between exposure to Agent Orange and diabetes and possibly heart disease (Paul Alexander). Just as war affects life and physical health, it also has a negative effect on the emotional stability of the mind. (http://students.pepperdine.edu/ayarthur/casualties.htm)

*The number of deaths that occurred during the Vietnam War alone is staggering. The Vietnamese lost 3.8 million and the United States lost 58,000, according to McNamara.

Oke, mijn opmerking over Vietnam was misschien wel erg ondoordacht. Daarin geef ik jou gelijk.

[Joostje]

Insane Juggalo schreef op 19-03-2003 @ 11:18:
Oke, mijn opmerking over Vietnam was misschien wel erg ondoordacht. Daarin geef ik jou gelijk.

Dank je .

[WolterB]

ik ben ook van plan om te komen

[Jamais_Vu]

O kut!! heb geen vrij gevraagd, damn, ik wil wel komen.......
Gaat niet meer, maar iedereen die gaat: Ik sta volledig achter jullie en ik vind jullie GEWELDIG!!!!!!!!!!!!!! respect!