11-01-2006, 20:27
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Hallo,
gister heb ik het boek Siegfried van Harry Mülisch uitgelezen en nu heb ik daar een paar vragen over, waarvan ik het antwoord niet op internet kan vinden. Ik vroeg me af of jullie het antwoord weten op deze vragen, bij voorbaad dank: 1) Heeft Eva Braun echt een dagboek bijgehouden? 2) Zo ja, waarom heeft ze het dan niet vernietigd, wat ze zei dat ze zou doen? 3) Heeft ze in dat dagboek echt Siegfried genoemd? Bedankt
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I did it for teh lulz
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11-01-2006, 20:40
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1) Ik heb het haar niet zien doen.
Probeer Wikipedia? 2) If no diary, then no destroy diary  3) If no diary... Wikipedia zegt overigens niets over een dagboek. Op een andere site staat dit: Twenty-two pages of Eva Braun's 1935 diary were found after the war - a fascinating document of an immature young woman whose love for Hitler is unmistakably sincere. This early, authentic diary for the period from February 6 to May 28 1935 exists, both in German script and in English typescript translation, in the National Archives, Washington, D.C. "February 6, 1935 I think this must be the right day to begin this extra-special diary. I have now reached the happy age of 23. No, happy is not quite the right word. At this particular moment I am certainly not happy. The truth is that I have rather large ideas about the importance to be attached to this day: If I had a dog I would not feel so lonely, but I suppose that is asking for too much. Frau Schaub came as an ambassador bringing flowers and telegrams. The result is that my whole office resembles a flower shop and smells like a cemetery chapel. I suppose I am ungrateful, but I did want to be given a dachshund. And I just don't have one. Perhaps I'll get one next year, or much later, when it will be more appropriate for a budding old maid. What is important is not to give up hope. I should have learned to be patient by now. Today I bought two lottery tickets, because I had a feeling that it would be now or never--they were both blanks. So I am not going to be rich after all. Nothing at all to be done about it. Today I was going to Zugspitze with Herta, Gretel, Ilse, and Mutti, and I should have had a wonderful time, for it is always most enjoyable when other people are enjoying themselves, too. But nothing came of it. This evening I am going to have dinner with Herta. What else can you do, when you are a little single woman of 23? So I shall end my birthday "with gluttony and drunkenness." I think this is what he would want me to do. February 11, 1935 He came to see me, but nary a sign of a dog or a chest of drawers. He did not even ask me what I wanted for my birthday. So I bought some jewelry for myself. A necklace, earrings, and a matching ring, all for 50 marks. All very pretty, and I hope he likes it. If he doesn't, then he should choose something for me himself. February 18, 1935 Yesterday he came quite unexpectedly, and we had a delightful evening. The nicest thing is that he is thinking of taking me from the shop and -- but I had better not get excited about it yet -- he may give me a little house. I simply must not let myself think about it. It would be marvelous. I wouldn't have to open the door to our "beloved customers," and go on being a shopgirl. Dear God, grant that this may really happen not in some far-off time, but soon. Poor Charly is ill and won't be able to come with me to Berlin. But perhaps that is best after all. Br. can be very rude to her sometimes, and that would make her even more unhappy. I am so infinitely happy that he loves me so much, and I pray that it will always be like this. It won't be my fault if he ever stops loving me. I am so terribly unhappy that I cannot write to him. These notes must serve as the receptacle of my lamentations. He came on Saturday. Saturday evening there was the Town Ball. Frau Schwarz gave me a box, so I absolutely had to go after I had accepted. Well, I spent a few wonderfully delightful hours with him until 12 o'clock and then with his permission I spent two hours at the ball. On Sunday he promised I could see him. I telephoned to the Osteria and left a message with Werlin to say that I was waiting to hear from him. He simply went off to Feldafing, and refused Hoffmann's invitation to coffee and dinner. I suppose there are two sides to every question. Perhaps he wanted to be alone with Dr. G., who was here, but he should have let me know. At Hoffmann's I felt I was sitting on hot coals, expecting him to arrive every moment. In the end we went to the railroad station, as he suddenly decided he would have to go. We were just in time to see the last lights of the train disappearing. Once again Hoffmann left the house too late, and so I couldn't even say good-by to him. Perhaps I am taking too dark a view, I hope I am, but he is not coming again for another two weeks. Until then I'll be miserable and restless. I don't know why he should be angry with me. Perhaps it is because of the ball, but he did give his permission. I am racking my brains to find out why he left without saying good-by to me. The Hoffmanns have given me a ticket for the Venetian Night this evening, but I am not going. I am much too miserable. March 11, 1935 There is only one thing I want. I would like to be seriously ill, and to hear nothing more about him for at least a week. Why doesn't something happen to me? Why do I have to go through all this? If only I had never set eyes on him! I am utterly miserable. I shall go out and buy some more sleeping powder and go into a half-dreamlike state, and then I won't think about it so much. Why doesn't that Devil take me with him? It would be much better with him than it is here. I waited for three hours in front of the Carlton, and had to watch him buying flowers for Ondra and inviting her to dinner. (That was just my mad imagination. March 16th.) He only needs me for certain purposes, otherwise it is not possible. This is idiocy. When he says he loves me, it only means he loves me at that particular instant. Like his promises, which he never keeps. Why does he torment me like this, when he could finish it off at once? March 16, 1935 He has left for Berlin again. If only I didn't go mad when he sees me so rarely. After all, it is quite obvious that he is not really interested in me when he has so much to do in politics. Today I am going to the Zugspitze with Gretel, and perhaps my insanity will then leave me. In the past everything turned out well, and it will be the same this time. April 1, 1935 Yesterday he invited us to dinner at the Vierjahrenzeiten (Four Seasons). I sat with him for three hours and we did not exchange a single word. At the end he handed me, as he had done before, an envelope with money in it. It would have been much nicer if he had enclosed a greeting or a loving word. I would have been so pleased if he had. But he not think of it. Why isn't he going to dine with the Hoffmanns? If he did, I would at least have had him to myself for a few minutes. I hope he doesn't come any more until his house is ready. May 10, 1935 As Frau Hoffmann so affectionately and tactlessly informed me, he has now found a replacement for me. She is called Valkyrie, and that's what she looks like, including her legs. He likes measurements of this kind, but if she is really like that, he will soon make her thin with vexation unless, like Charly, the more worries she has, the fatter she gets. Charly's vexations only stimulate her appetite. If Frau Hoffmann's information is correct. I think it is terrible that he should say nothing to me about it. After all, he should know me well enough to realize that I would never put anything in his way if he suddenly discovered his heart belonged to someone else. What happens to me is no concern of his. I shall wait until June 3rd, when three months will have passed since our last meeting. Then I will ask for an explanation. Will anyone say this is not a modest demand? The weather is so wonderful, and I, the mistress of the greatest man in Germany and in the world, am sitting here and gazing at the sun through a window. How can he have so little understanding as to let me remain here, bowing to strangers. Man proposes, etc. And as one makes one's bed... It is all my fault, but it is nice to put the blame on others. The time of fasting will end, and then everything will taste so much better. It is a pity it is spring. May 28, 1935 I have just sent him the crucial letter. Question: will he attach any importance to it? We'll see. If I don't get an answer before this evening, I'll take 25 pills and gently fall asleep into another world. He has so often told me he is madly in love with me, but what does that mean when I haven't had a good word from him in three months? So he has had a head full of politics all this time, but surely it is time he relaxed a little. What happened last year? Didn't Roehm and Italy give him a lot of problems, but in spite of all that he found time for me. Maybe the present situation is incomparably more difficult for him, nevertheless a few kind words conveyed through the Hoffmanns would not have greatly distracted him. I am afraid there is something behind it all. I am not to blame. Absolutely not. Maybe it is another woman, not the Valkyrie -- that would be hard to believe. But there are so many other women. Is there any other explanation? I can't find it. God, I am afraid he won't give me his answer today. If only somebody would help me -- it is all so terribly depressing. Perhaps my letter reached him at an inopportune moment. Perhaps I should not have written. Anyway, the uncertainty is more terrible than a sudden ending of it all. I have made up my mind to take 35 pills this time, and it will be "dead certain." If only he would let someone call." Daar staat niks in over een zekere Siegfried. |
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12-01-2006, 10:10
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Hé, dat boek heb ik héél lang geleden een keer gelezen, geloof ik
 Lijkt wel een vorig leven  Ging dat niet over dat zoontje van Hitler?  Ik geloof dat ik het erg goed vond.
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12-01-2006, 12:09
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12-01-2006, 12:55
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waarom zou je leraar blij zijn als je mulisch leest
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Bij het denken aan de liefde heb ik de liefde lief en 't is de liefde tot u, geliefde die mij tot die liefde hief
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12-01-2006, 13:24
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'Een Hollander is een Engelsman die rechts rijdt' Louis Paul Boon
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12-01-2006, 14:00
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Bij het denken aan de liefde heb ik de liefde lief en 't is de liefde tot u, geliefde die mij tot die liefde hief
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12-01-2006, 14:36
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Oei, Siegfried... Dat boek heb ik twee jaar geleden gelezen voor een boekbespreking. Verschrikkelijk vond ik het... langdradig, filosofisch, arrogant geschreven... Niet mijn cup of tea. Er is wel eens over gespeculeerd of Hitler een zoon gehad zou hebben, maar Siegfried is verder gewoon een verzinsel van Mulisch.
*brr* Mulisch *brr* |
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12-01-2006, 16:27
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Bedankt allemaal!
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I did it for teh lulz
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13-01-2006, 08:08
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hijzelf denkt daar waarschijnlijk anders over.
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I know a ghost can walk through a wall, yet, I'm just a man, still learning how to fall
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13-01-2006, 10:53
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Het hele verhaal is in feite een afspiegeling van Mulisch'obsessie voor 'het fenomeen Hitler'. Dat doet de autobiografische hoofdpersoon ook al uit de doeken als hij in een interview in het boek zegt dat duizend studies Hitler alleen nog maar mythischer hebben gemaakt, maar dat hij 'misschien wel kan worden gevangen in een web van fictie'.
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"Republicans understand the importance of bondage between a mother and child." - Dan Quayle
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13-01-2006, 11:20
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Einde van het verhaal was dat hij enorm vastliep omdat er gewoon weinig te doen valt met Mulisch. Zijn boeken lijken over te lopen van de interessante dingen, maar in feite is het allemaal gebakken lucht. Hij lijkt enorm te spelen met klassieke mythologie of wat dan ook, maar in feite pak hij 'Griekse Mythen en Sagen van A tot Z' uit de kast en pent hij ze half over, met hier en daar een aanpassing. Het lijkt gewoon veel meer dan het is. Dus in feite heb je wel gelijk, het is moeilijk iets zinnigs over Mulisch te zeggen. LUH-3417 |
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13-01-2006, 12:02
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Bij het denken aan de liefde heb ik de liefde lief en 't is de liefde tot u, geliefde die mij tot die liefde hief
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13-01-2006, 12:27
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 Mij maakt het allemaal niet uit dat Mulisch geobsedeerd is door Hitler of weet ik het, ik heb van Mulisch volgens mij zelfs alleen nog maar Siegfried gelezen, en dat vond ik nou per toeval een goed boek Of het nou realiteit of niet was maakt mij eigenlijk geen bal uit.
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13-01-2006, 15:38
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LUH-3417 |
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13-01-2006, 19:23
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Ik speelde op safe door het nog extra te zeggen, zeg maar. 
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"Republicans understand the importance of bondage between a mother and child." - Dan Quayle
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13-01-2006, 20:31
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© Ndimension
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14-01-2006, 11:30
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Maar 't is u vergeven
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14-01-2006, 12:02
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14-01-2006, 12:04
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15-01-2006, 13:32
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15-01-2006, 16:52
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eh... idd.
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16-01-2006, 23:38
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Mulisch gebruikt in zijn boeken meer dan ooit gegevens die wel waar zijn, maar niet helemaal. Hij suggereert namelijk dat ze wel waar kunnen zijn, terwijl meestal niet het geval is. (Snap je het nog
)?Bijv bij De Ontdekking van de Hemel: Dat geval over de ark des verbonds, die is waarschijnlijk allang vernietigd, en zo ook de stenen tafelen, mochten ze ook bestaan hebben. |
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18-04-2006, 16:25
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In Siegfried beschrijft hij de overeenkomsten tussen Nietzsche en Hitler, voor zover ik weet vanaf pagina 170. De linkerpagina, een paar zinnen van boven, en daar gaat hij een aantal pagina's mee verder. Hij stelt ook hun leeftijden gelijk. Hij zegt dat Nietzsche en Hitler beide 56 geworden zijn, bijvoorbeeld en wil zo zeggen dat Nietzsches geest in die van Hitler is overgegaan, samen met de andere argumenten dan.
Nietzsche is geboren op 15 oktober 1844 en is gestorven op, ik meen, maar dat weet ik niet zeker, 25 augustus 1900. Hitler is geboren op 21 (geloof ik) april 1889 - het jaar dat Nietzsche krankzinnig werd, ook door Mulisch aangehaald, en stierf, althans, pleegde zelfmoord op 30 april - ja, koninginnedag  - 1945. Zoals je ziet was Hitler dus inderdaad 56 jaar, maar Nietzsche maar 55. Mulisch gebruikt wel vaker fictie. Hij speelt met de lezer. Je moet vooral niet alles te letterlijk nemen. Het blijft een roman.
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18-04-2006, 16:30
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Oh, trouwens, ik las net nog even de andere posts door op deze pagina en het had er de schijn van dat men twijfelt over het bestaan van een zoon van Hitler en of deze zoon dan Siegfried had geheten.
De naam Siegfried is door Mulisch verzonnen, dat is te zeggen, in dit verband, omdat in de boeken van Mulisch alles meestal met alles te maken heeft. Het verbang hier wordt aangegeven door een band die loopt van Wagner, Weimar (geen componist, maar een geboorteplaats), Nietzsche en Hitler. Er wordt gesteld dat de laatste twee groot fan waren van Wagner en nou wil het 'toeval' dat Siegfried voorkomt in het repertoire van Wagner, evenals Tristan en Isolde - mochten jullie die ooit nog tegenkomen, dan weet je waar het bij hoort. |
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18-04-2006, 17:09
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En voor die informatie, die in elk zichzelf respecterend uittreksel te vinden is, moest je een thread van drie maanden oud uppen?
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"Republicans understand the importance of bondage between a mother and child." - Dan Quayle
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18-04-2006, 19:30
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Ik gok niet dat hier nog iemand op zit te wachten.
We hebben ze niet vaak op Letteren, maar eindelijk! Een up en een slot! Nog even en we zijn net een echt forum.  LUH-3417 |
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