08-01-2005, 19:44
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08-01-2005, 19:45
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wel goed op blijven letten, he
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08-01-2005, 19:46
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 maar t is imo ook niet in dit topic bedoeld om "t gelijk te behalen".
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08-01-2005, 19:48
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08-01-2005, 19:48
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08-01-2005, 19:49
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niet
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08-01-2005, 19:50
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 dus vandaar 
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08-01-2005, 19:52
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08-01-2005, 19:53
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08-01-2005, 19:53
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zoals ik al zei is t in t hebreeuws onderwereld niet hel
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08-01-2005, 19:54
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08-01-2005, 19:59
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Maar tis wel erg offtopic..
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08-01-2005, 20:01
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Wat is de 'onderwereld' dan volgens jou?
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08-01-2005, 20:01
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niet dat over de hel praten nu zo on-topic is
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08-01-2005, 20:03
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[2:62]: Voorzeker, de gelovigen, de Joden, de Christenen en de Sabianen, wie onder hen ook in Allah en de laatste dag geloven zullen hun beloning bij hun Heer ontvangen en er zal geen vrees over hen komen, noch zullen zij treuren.
Dit vers gaat over de gelovigen die zich hadden onderworpen aan de wil van God, goede daden verrichtten en het geopenbaarde geloofden. Je kunt ze dus eigenlijk ook gewoon moslim noemen.
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08-01-2005, 20:04
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Maar de onderwereld is imo de wereld waar je naar toe gaat als je dood bent en niet meegenomen wordt naar t euforischere hiernamaals. Gewoon "onder de grond" gestopt en niks bijzonders aan. Je lijdt niet eeuwig van Satan die je geselt ofzo en brandt niet eeuwig, maar je wordt niet meegenomen naar t hiernamaals.
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08-01-2005, 20:13
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Want een vuur is aangestoken in Mijn toorn, en zal bernen tot in de onderste hel, en zal het land met zijn inkomst verteren, en de gronden der bergen in vlam zetten Vuur dat aangestoken is, bernen in de onderste hel, verteren, in vlam zetten. Lijkt me duidelijke taal. Citaat:
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08-01-2005, 20:19
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08-01-2005, 20:32
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Dat vers is genomen uit een geheel waarin god zegt dat ie boos is op gelovigen die god verlaten hebben voor andere "goden". en waarin god dus verwoordt dat er vuur is ontstaan in zijn boosheid dat zich uitstrekt tot in de onderste onderwereld. En dat zij slachtoffer zullen worden van ondermeer honger, e.d. Wie zegt dat het hier over de hel zoals de christenen die kennen gaat en niet over een vulkaan? Die vulkaan haalt immers vuur vanuit de onderwereld waarmee de voeten van de bergen in vlam worden gezet. Citaat:
 [edit: even hij en hem weggehaald, want ik vind een geslachtsaanwijzing voor god niks]
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Bureaucracy is the death of any achievement.
Laatst gewijzigd op 08-01-2005 om 20:38.
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08-01-2005, 20:33
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08-01-2005, 20:40
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08-01-2005, 20:43
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08-01-2005, 20:44
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08-01-2005, 20:51
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zoals ik al zei is er geen bewijs dat er een christelijke of islamitisch achtige hel bestaat in de tenach. Er staat slechts verwezen dat mozes bv na zijn dood zal gevoegd worden bij zijn volk. Als er verwezen wordt naar de onderwereld dan is dat niet het beeld zoals christenen en moslims deze van de hel hebben. simple as that
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08-01-2005, 20:53
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08-01-2005, 20:54
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08-01-2005, 21:00
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08-01-2005, 21:01
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08-01-2005, 21:03
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Over die theorie
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08-01-2005, 21:21
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Wat betreft de slechteriken: In de overlevering wordt er wel gesproken over Olam Haba; het leven hierna; en dat als je die niet verdiend zou hebben dat je in een niveau komt waar je gereinigd moet worden van je zonden. Die plek wordt door veel rabijnen weer anders geinterpreteerd. Er zijn rabijnen die geloven dat de zielen van enorme slechteriken (denk dat Hitler daar wel onder valt) gewoon op gaan lossen in t niets en anderen geloven dat ze gedoemd zijn rusteloos rond te waren.
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10-01-2005, 10:17
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10-01-2005, 16:55
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check nieuw topic over de Tora Citaat:
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10-01-2005, 16:56
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Het woord "jood" werd gebruikt voor degene die overgebleven waren uit het volk van Yahudha, degene die als gevangenen waren genomen en geleid waren naar Babel, 586 jaar voor het begin van de christelijke kalender. Als gevangenen die samengingen in een nieuwe cultuur, ontwikkelden zij een nieuw dialect dat gebaseerd was op het Aramees. Het was dit dialect waarmee zij de Torah schreven die we nu hebben; ze hadden hem samengesteld, terwijl zij gevangenen in Babel waren, 800 jaar na het tijdperk van Mozes. Dit is de reden waarom hun dialect bekend werd als het Aramees van de Torah. Zonder enige twijfel kun je stellen dat de Torah die zij samenstelden niet dezelfde serie wetten ( Sharia) bevat, welke aan de profeet Mozes geopenbaard was. Daarom kun je beter hun boek "de Torah van de Joden" noemen om het te onderscheiden van " de Torah van Mozes", vrede zij met hem. Dit was een stukje geschiedenis om het verschil even kort aan te duiden. Nu ga ik specifieker op je vraag in. Toen de Joden hun Torah samenstelden, hadden zij twee doelen voor ogen. Een daarvan was om hun geschiedenis te verheerlijken en om zichzelf te presenteren als de beste onder de volkeren - "Het Gekozen volk"- die gekozen en verkozen waren door God boven alle andere volkeren (volgens hen). En om geloof te hechten aan hun claim dat hun oorsprong herleid kan worden aan een zeer significant historische figuur namelijk, Ibrahim, vrede zij met hem. En zo begonnen zij hun geschiedenis vast te leggen. Wat geschreven werd, was dus niet gebaseerd op feitelijke gebeurtenissen, maar op wat door hun verlangens gedicteerd werd. Het tweede doel was om te laten blijken dat Palestina hun thuisland was. Maar daar ga ik hier verder niet op in. Laatst gewijzigd op 10-01-2005 om 17:18.
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10-01-2005, 16:58
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@Pakistaan, heb je wat veranderd aan de tekst dat je de ene post waar ik op gereageerd had verwijderd had en weer een post gepost had?
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10-01-2005, 16:59
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10-01-2005, 17:13
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03-02-2005, 22:59
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I will copy a very good explanation of this issue from one of the most famous prayer books currently in use (and add my own commentary). For not having made me a gentile ... a slave ... a woman. The Torah assigns missions to respective groups of people. Within Israel, for example, the Davidic family, Kohanim, and Levites are set apart by virtue of their particular callings, in addition to their shared mission as Jews. All such missions carry extra responsibilities and call for the performance of the mitzvos associated with them. We thank G-d, therefore, for the challenge of improving His universe in accordance with His will. Male, free Jews have responsibilities and duties not shared by others. For this, they express gratitude that, unlike women, they were not freed from the obligation to perform the time-related commandments (1). This follows the Talmudic dictum that an oligatory performance of a commandment is superior to a voluntary one, because it is human nature to resist obligations. Women, on the other hand, both historically and because of their nature, are the guardians of tradition, the molders of character, children, and family. Furthermore, women have often been the protectors of Judaism when the impetuosity and aggressiveness of the male nature led the men astray. The classic precedent was in the Wilderness when the men - not the woman - worshiped the Golden Calf. Thus, though women were not given the privilege of the challenge assigned to men, they are created closer to G-d's ideal of satisfaction. They express their gratitude in the blessing for having made me according to his will. 1) Women are not obligated to perform time-related commandments. This is because women are generally found around the house caring for the children, and imposing on them the requirement to perform all kinds of time-related commandments (ie, commandments that must be performed at a specific time during the day) might endanger the health of the children. Thus, women are not obligated to pray three services a day, women are not obligated to wear tefillin (leather straps men put on their left arm and head worn during morning prayers) or a tallis gadol (large garment worn during morning prayers) and women are not required to perform numerous other commandments. Concerning the wearing of tzitzis, the popular four-cornered garment worn all day under ones clothes, some Rabbinical authorities differ. The general opinion which is universally accepted is that women do not wear them. (First paragraph: from the commentary of the Artscroll siddur (prayer book) Kol Yaakov; other parts written by the author of this post.) If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask them; I'll try my best.
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03-02-2005, 23:39
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"Republicans understand the importance of bondage between a mother and child." - Dan Quayle
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03-02-2005, 23:51
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And in certain circles, women are certainly valued as much as men are. In my own branch of Judaism (Chabad-Lubavitch) women and men are fully equal in importance. When we graduate from the yeshiva we (the men) are fully qualified rabbis. The women graduate from their seminaries. Then, a pair is coupled and sent off into the wide world to open op a Chabad Center (a combined synagogue and Jewish cultural center and much, much more) in some city anywhere in the world. You find many of them in Holland also, for example in Rotterdam, Haarlem, Almere, Maastricht, Utrecht and Amersfoort, and ofcourse in Amsterdam and Amstelveen. Often, these young couples are leaving for a city where they will be the only strictly observant Jews in town, living in an overwhelmingly non-Jewish environment surrounded by mainly less religious Jews. Do you think the men still rule over the women in such a case? How could that be? They are a couple, both personally and professionally, and they have to cooperate as full partners. Other women are teachers, doctors, scientists, artists... Certainly, some professions are more commonly chosen than others (for example, many women become teachers and there aren't many who choose to be aeronautical scientists), but they still follow higher education and occupy high-profile positions in all kinds of organizations.
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03-02-2005, 23:56
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Well, my main criticism at religion and those who preach it is that the whole story of equal importance is nothing but a shroud to hide that behind that, people are forced into a role model much like in the Hinduist caste system.
As for the 'jewish world' (I take it you are refering to Israel) I have been seeing and reading a few things on divorce and family law which are simply downright ridiculous, a man is able to have several women, and can effectively divorce whenever he wants, whyever he wants, while the woman practically has no influence in such matters at all. Luckily the same film was shown in the Knesset, and the law is told to be changed, but the fact that this example comes from 2004, and not somewhere in the 1950's or before says enough about equality. (goh, we gaan wel echt op de Engelse toer zeg..)
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"Republicans understand the importance of bondage between a mother and child." - Dan Quayle
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04-02-2005, 00:18
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I suppose not; similarly, our Talmud originates from a later time, at least part of it. Concerning those 'true teachings and laws': you can find them in any Jewish library. One more thing. Please don't use the word you used for our G-d. The pronunciation of the four-letter name of G-d (Y and H and V and H) is unknown, absolutely unknown. Some Christians started pronouncing it the way you wrote it, but no Jew will ever pronounce that word the way you write it. When we talk about G-d (like in this topic) we say Hashem (which literally means "The Name") and during prayer and reading the Torah, when this name is written we say "Adonai", which can be translated as "Lord". The Talmud consists of two major parts: the Mishnah and the Gemara. The Mishnah is a set of laws (a lot of laws), just plain dry laws. They were orally transmitted to Moshe Rabbeinu a"h at Mount Sinay and were subsequently transmitted to scholars from generation to generation, and only after a long time written down. Then, great Rabbis released their minds on the Mishnah. Their discussions of these laws became known as the Gemara. Thus, the Gemara is a commentary on the Mishnah written by a (very large) number of scholars. So the Gemara (which is the source many quotes which are pulled out of their context) consists of discussions. Those have different viewpoints. Some say A, some say B. Thus, a single sentence from the Gemara can never be taken as a "fact of the Talmud". The Talmud may say "rain is green, it is always green and has always been green and will always be green" and may three sentences further down say "rain is red, it is always red and has always been red and will always be red." What is left out is the first part of the sentence; if you look at that, you would get: "Rabbi Reuven says: Rain is green, it is always green and has always been green and will always be green." And: "Rabbi Shimeon says: Rain is red, it is always red and has always been red and will always be red." So what is rain? Red or green? Suppose you love green rain and have always wanted to convince everyone that green rain really exists and so forth. So you say: "Look!! The Talmud says it!!" Now, do you understand how the Talmud can be used to spread anti-Semitism? Citaat:
Ani Maamin - I Believe Based on the Thirteen Principles of Faith formulated by the Rambam in his Commentary on the Mishnah (tractate Sanhedrin 10:1). 1. I believe with complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is the Creator and Guide of all the created beings, and that He alone has made, does make, and will make all things. 2. I believe with complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is One and Alone; that there is no oneness in any way like Him; and that He alone is our G-d - was, is and will be. 3. I believe with complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is incorporeal; that He is free from all anthropomorphic properties; and that He has no likeness at all. 4. I believe with complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is the first and the last. 5. I believe with complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is the only one to whom it is proper to pray, and that it is inappropriate to pray to anyone else. 6. I believe with complete faith that all the words of the Prophets are true. 7. I believe with complete faith that the prophecy of Moses our teacher, peace unto him, was true; and that he was the father of the prophets, both of those who preceded and of those who followed him. 8. I believe with complete faith that the whole Torah which we now possess was given to Moses, our teacher, peace unto him. 9. I believe with complete faith that this Torah will not be changed, and that there will be no other Torah given by the Creator, blessed be His name. 10. I believe with complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, knows all the deeds and thoughts of human beings, as it is said, "It is He who fashions the hearts of them all, He who perceives all their actions." (Psalms 33:15). 11. I believe with complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, rewards those who observe His commandments, and punishes those who transgress His commandments. 12. I believe with complete faith in the coming of Moshiach, and although he may tarry, nevertheless, I wait every day for him to come. 13. I believe with complete faith that there will be resurrection of the dead at the time when it will be the will of the Creator, blessed be His name and exalted be His remembrance forever and ever. Citaat:
Do you see me talking about your Koran in a similar way? Would you like me to start with that? Will that create peace between you and me? Why do you write these things? You could, instead, focus on learning more about your own faith. My life (and my posts on this forum) are not directed on convincing everyone else that Islam doesn't exist. My posts here are placed in the sincere hope that I can prevent another genocide on my people. I respectfully request you to stop talking about other people's beliefs in such a way. I do not think your way of talking is what this forum was intended for. Please respect my opinion and my beliefs, and I will respect yours. Citaat:
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04-02-2005, 00:24
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Israel temporarily allowed men to marry multiple women at first, but this dispensation was only granted as an exception to Jews originating from Arab countries. Nowadays, it is absolutely forbidden. Concerning the divorce matters, which are indeed a very serious problem, I am hopeful that a solution to this problem will soon be found. (Quite English indeed. I can read Dutch pretty well, but for writing I prefer English. I suppose most participants in this discussion can follow English sufficiently. But you don't have to write English for me; I can read Dutch.)
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04-02-2005, 00:32
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04-02-2005, 10:03
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Muslims believe in the infinite Oneness of G-d, just like Jews. Christians, on the other hand, believe in something they call the 'holy trinity' which is definitely idolatrous. Let me illustrate our approach with the following example: it is absolutely forbidden according to halacha (Jewish law) for a Jew to ever enter a church, but it is permitted to enter a mosque. Because a church is a place of idolatry and a mosque is not. Furthermore, Judaism shares your view of 'heaven' and 'hell'. We believe that when a person dies, his soul first goes to a place which is quite unpleasant to be cleansed of the sins it committed in this world. When this process has been completed (which cannot take longer than a little less than a year) the soul ascends to 'heaven'. Only the souls of extremely utterly wicked persons stay in 'hell' forever. But all others (even those Jews who eat pork, curse with Hashem's name etc.) go to 'heaven' after this cleansing process. Laatst gewijzigd op 04-02-2005 om 10:06.
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04-02-2005, 10:17
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04-02-2005, 10:19
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In de Nederlandse Minhag (Joodse Traditie) is het nooit zo'n point geweest om een kerk (niet tijdens een zondagsdienst) binnen te gaan. Lieve Rabbinical Student, what's your point?
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Puur het feit dat jij te dom bent om het bovenstaande te begrijpen maakt het nog niet onjuist. || ~jan-e-man!~ || Ik ben een knuffel-allogtoon
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04-02-2005, 10:26
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04-02-2005, 10:28
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I honestly hope, that once you've got your smicha, you'll never be my Rabbi.
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Puur het feit dat jij te dom bent om het bovenstaande te begrijpen maakt het nog niet onjuist. || ~jan-e-man!~ || Ik ben een knuffel-allogtoon
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04-02-2005, 10:33
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