HBO isn't university?

[Leannán]

Hi there,

there is something consfusing me. In Ireland we have 2 types of universities which both have the same level. The first is called University of professional education and the 2nd is called University of scientific education.
The first one is equal to HBO in the Netherlands. The 2nd one is equal to what Dutch call ''Universiteit''. But in fact they are both University, right? Its the same level but a different type of education. Why do many Dutch think there is a level difference between these 2? Is it because of the name? The level difference is determined by bachelor or master, not by education type.

[Rata]

voertaal is gewoon nederlands hoor

[Go]

Rata schreef op 28-09-2005 @ 19:59 :
voertaal is gewoon nederlands hoor

of Engels

[Wawl]

OMG, not again. UTFS. Oja, je leest natuurlijk geen Nederlands.

[A Duck]

Its becouse there is a level difference here...

[Kathleen]

Well, apparently the Irish and Dutch types of education are not exactly equal; perhaps you are comparing them too easily? Because in the Netherlands there ís a difference in level between HBO and University. If you are eligible to enter an HBO education that does not automatically mean you are eligible to enter University as well; you'll have to have additional diplomas for that. So HBO is indeed not university.

Hope that clears it up for you

[Leannán]

Kathleen schreef op 28-09-2005 @ 20:13 :
Well, apparently the Irish and Dutch types of education are not exactly equal; perhaps you are comparing them too easily? Because in the Netherlands there ís a difference in level between HBO and University. If you are eligible to enter an HBO education that does not automatically mean you are eligible to enter University as well; you'll have to have additional diplomas for that. So HBO is indeed not university.

Hope that clears it up for you

But in English, HBO is called University of professional education. For foreign students HBO is the same level as Universiteit. They are both university.

[Sanctus]

What is your fucking point ?

Leannán schreef op 28-09-2005 @ 20:32 :
But in English, HBO is called University of professional education. For foreign students HBO is the same level as Universiteit. They are both university.

I don't know how HBO is called in English, but HBO isn't the same level as university, so it isn't university. And the rest in Dutch (you may translate it yourself if you want): het niveau wordt nl niet bepaald door hoe iets in een andere taal genoemd wordt.

Mijn Engels is te slecht hiervoor.

[Kimisa]

As someone said before: you are comparing the levels to easy. In the Netherlands, there is a difference between HBO and Universiteit. HBO isn't university, like you claimed.

Volgens mij klopt er van mijn engels geen hout, maar goed.

[Johnns]

but as soon as you leave the netherlands the difference between HBO and "University" disappears, since they both work with a Bachelor / Master programme.

[Leannán]

Leonoor schreef op 28-09-2005 @ 20:44 :
I don't know how HBO is called in English, but HBO isn't the same level as university, so it isn't university.

Thats what I dont understand. because for foreign students it is.... HBO is also university, just like universiteit. Outside the netherlands most countries have these 2 types of universities and they are both considered the same level.

As a foreign student I need the same qualifications to enter HBO or Universiteit, because they are both university.

One thing is for sure. HBO is the same as university of professional education abroad. And universiteit is the same as university of scientific education.

Why it isnt the same for Dutch?

I was wondering, because when someone asked my friend: are you studying at university? She said: no. I was like: huh??

Because when I finish my bachelor degree, I will have exactly the same bachelor degree as the bachelor degree in Universiteit. Dutch people do not receive the same degree or what???

[Leannán]

Kimisa schreef op 28-09-2005 @ 20:52 :
As someone said before: you are comparing the levels to easy. In the Netherlands, there is a difference between HBO and Universiteit. HBO isn't university, like you claimed.

Volgens mij klopt er van mijn engels geen hout, maar goed.

Yes HBO is university. HBO and Universiteit are both university.

the thing is.... Inside the Netherlands a HBO degree is worth less then an Universiteit degree. But if you go abroad with these Dutch degrees then they are equal.

Leannán schreef op 28-09-2005 @ 20:55 :
because for foreign students it is....

I don't know...maybe because the education before HBO/university isn't the same level? In the Netherlands you have (VMBO,) HAVO en VWO:
HAVO -> HBO
VWO -> universiteit (university)

Dutch people do not receive the same degree or what???

Dutch people do not receive the same degree.

Leannán schreef op 28-09-2005 @ 20:58 :
Yes HBO is university. HBO and Universiteit are both university.

That isn't true: that you need the same qualifications to enter HBO or Universiteit makes theme (?) not the same.

The Dutch system:



WO = universiteit

[A Duck]

Lets make it more complicated.

It is possible to go with Havo to the university, if you get a propodeus in one of the first 3 years (thats my plan )

A Duck schreef op 28-09-2005 @ 21:10 :
Lets make it more complicated.

tja, je moet er wat voor over hebben als je iets niet begrijpt. Zelf vind ik schema's juist altijd veel duidelijk maken.

It is possible to go with Havo to the university, if you get a propodeus in one of the first 3 years (thats my plan )

Het zou handig zijn om er bij te vertellen dat je dan je propedeuse van het HBO moet halen (ik neem iig aan dat je dat bedoeld - en dan nog is het te hopen dat het om een universitaire opleiding gaat waar ze je met een P aannemen). Je gaat dan btw niet met havo naar de universiteit, maar met je HBO-P, met alleen havo kan het nl niet (tenzij je een 21+-toets doet, dan soms weer wel.)

[Leannán]

Leonoor schreef op 28-09-2005 @ 20:59 :
I don't know...maybe because the education before HBO/university isn't the same level? In the Netherlands you have (VMBO,) HAVO en VWO:
HAVO -> HBO
VWO -> universiteit (university)


Dutch people do not receive the same degree.

My supervisor told me this is something left of the old dutch education system.

Leannán schreef op 28-09-2005 @ 21:18 :
My supervisor told me this is something left of the old dutch education system.

Maybe he has to check it again.

(Voor zo ver ik weet is er niets ouds aan. The system on the picture is the new system.)

[*naso*]

can't u compare HBO to College..? not UNIverysity...

someone who has VMBO diplome or HAVO, can't go to UNiverity..coz for Uni u need to have VWO dilplome....so there is difference....

[Leannán]

MBO is College. In College you don't get bachelor degrees


Anyway, the degree I get is worth the same as a degree in Universiteit.

I can't imagine dutch students get a lower degree

Leannán schreef op 28-09-2005 @ 21:32 :
I can't imagine dutch students get a lower degree

Dutch university-students don't, hbo-students do.

In the Netherlands there are three continuation schoolings after high school (that's also called college (www.interglot.com )) and they have all three another level. I don't think that's so strange.

[Copycat]

Leannán schreef op 28-09-2005 @ 21:18 :
My supervisor told me this is something left of the old dutch education system.

Maybe your superviser is confused, since we use a new feature in our education system called 'tweede fase'. It's our current system.

[Young Grow Old]

in Holland at HBO you get the degrees Bachelor or Master, that are actually worthless abroad. At the university you get the degree Bachelor of Arts/Bachelor of Science or Master of Arts/Master of Science.

[Leannán]

Young Grow Old schreef op 28-09-2005 @ 21:38 :
in Holland at HBO you get the degrees Bachelor or Master, that are actually worthless abroad. At the university you get the degree Bachelor of Arts/Bachelor of Science or Master of Arts/Master of Science.

no, my bachelor of art which i get at my HBO(university of professional education) is worth the same as a bachelor of art at an irish university of professional education, which is worth the same as a bachelor at an Irish university of scientific education.

[Leannán]

Young Grow Old schreef op 28-09-2005 @ 21:38 :
in Holland at HBO you get the degrees Bachelor or Master, that are actually worthless abroad. At the university you get the degree Bachelor of Arts/Bachelor of Science or Master of Arts/Master of Science.

to me it sound slike a bachelor at HBO is worthless in the netherlands. But abroad it is worth the same as a bachelor at Universiteit. Even if you got the degree in Holland.

[Chaucus]

Leonoor schreef op 28-09-2005 @ 20:59 :
I don't know...maybe because the education before HBO/university isn't the same level? In the Netherlands you have (VMBO,) HAVO en VWO:
HAVO -> HBO
VWO -> universiteit (university)


Dutch people do not receive the same degree.

VWO -> HBO is also possible, don't know if it happens a lot people taking this route, but it certainly happens

[Sovereign]

Leannán schreef op 28-09-2005 @ 22:23 :
to me it sound slike a bachelor at HBO is worthless in the netherlands. But abroad it is worth the same as a bachelor at Universiteit. Even if you got the degree in Holland.

Are you saying a bachelor from a second-class "university of professional education" is worth the same as a bachelor from, say, Oxford? I don't think so.

In fact, I'm not even sure BSc or BA degrees are handed out by those "universities" of professional education. Most likely those are bachelors such as "bachelor of economics" or some such, not 'real' arts or science degrees.

Dutch HBOs are not allowed to hand out BSc or BA degrees. Obviously one would expect foreign degree systems to differ to a certain extent. The deciding difference there (most certainly so in the US) would be the stature of the university itself.

En waarom moet dit eigenlijk in het Engels?

[x-spekkie-x]

Hey Leannán,

In Holland we have a different school system than in a lot of other countries. That makes it so difficult to explain

We start with high school when we are around twelve years old. Here, we already have different levels in stead of one easy level for all.
We have:
MAVO (now called VMBO) = which takes 4 years
HAVO = which takes 5 years
VWO = which takes 6 years
And on top of that, there is a level difference between vmbo, havo and vwo. This is done, because every teenager is different and some people are just not smart so they go to a lower leveled high school. But, the people who are smart and need a challenge, can go to the vwo, so they have something to do (I know in the USA, you just have one easy level, so that smart persons only get A's and do absolutely nothing).

Anyways, after high school, you go to MBO, HBO or University.

VMBO -> MBO
HAVO -> MBO / HBO
VWO -> MBO / HBO / University

In these three systems, there is also a lot of difference.
MBO - very practical and very low leveled
HBO - higher level, not so practical, but a lot of lessons and groupwork (just like high school)
University - highest level, lessons only a few hours per week, lots of self study

The previous system we had (before bachelor/master) was a lot easier.
HBO -> you get a ing. title
University -> you get a drs. title (and if you studied longer you get the dr. title)

Now, we have the new bachelor/master system, to make it easier to study abroad (because the titles are the same now) and to make it easier to get a master, when you are in HBO.

HBO = four-year bachelor course
after that you can go to university and get your master in 2 years
University = three-year bachelor course
after that you can get your master in 3 additional years

So, what you see: the titles are the same (bachelor/master), but the whole courseload is very different!!

In holland, a bachelor of HBO is worth less than a bachelor of University, because in Holland we know the level difference.
In foreign countries, bachelor of HBO and bachelor of University sounds the same to them, so it's worth the same.

Conclusion: we dutchies need to go abroad with our bachelor

x-spekkie-x schreef op 29-09-2005 @ 06:45 :

We start with high school when we are around twelve years old. Here, we already have different levels in stead of one easy level for all.

We don't have "high school", that is an american system. Our pre-university school is called secundairy school.

[x-spekkie-x]

Lucky Luciano schreef op 29-09-2005 @ 08:25 :
We don't have "high school", that is an american system. Our pre-university school is called secundairy school.

You are right

_{Maar als we toch gaan mierenneuken: het is secondary}

[Chloe Siere]

Pfff, OMG, It isn't that hard to understand.

[MightyMarcel]

dear Leannan,

I would like to explain this to you, but it's rather complicated. as stated before, there is a distinct difference between HBO and a dutch univeristy. let's cover the differences between those two first, before we compare them to irish universities.

HBO means 'higher professional education' (Hoger Beroeps Onderwijs in dutch). this means it actually educates you to the point where you should be able to perform a 'profession'. (obviously, a carpenter doesn't need higher education, but a manager or a pr-person of some sorts need this education). It does not teach you how to acquire new knowledge (e.g. research stuff), but it teaches you how to do your job properly and learns you knowledge, stuff others came up with.

universiteit (i'm going to call dutch university 'universiteit'), you don't really learn a job. you learn how to do research, how to acquire new knowledge and so forth, by yourself. (obviously, you'll learn some stuff regarding to professions, but the education isn't focussed towards 'getting the job done'.) in essence, you're becoming a scientist when going to universiteit.

furthermore, a HBO bachelor is considered 'less' than a universiteit bachelor. (same goes for masters, but it is sometimes possible to go for a universiteit-master after a hbo-bachelor, depending on the type of (extracurricular) education you choose to take during your hbo-bachelor). simply put, HBO is one step up from MBO

(*which you would probably call college, however incorrect that would be. MBO is a simpler form of professional education and teaches you varying professions. for example. i once got an MBO-diploma for ICT-system manager, which is a level 4 MBO-diploma. a carpenter (and comparable professionals) would probably get a MBO-diploma in level 2 or 3. beyond level 4, there's the option of a HBO-diploma. for example, after my MBO-ict-diploma, i could've gone to a HBO-ict and get practically the same diploma, but on a (much) higher level.)

and universiteit is one step up from HBO. (because of that, you can get a HBO-propedeuse, which is just all the points of the first year of the HBO, and go on to a universiteit. you'll start in the first year of the universiteit, because there is a level-difference.)


now, that took me more lines than i expected, but let's compare it to the system abroad.

if you were to look only at the type of education, hbo would be considered 'professional education' (although, in my opinion, MBO comes closer to that). universiteit would then be called 'scientific education'.

if you were to look just at the level of education, hbo would be considered equal in level to both proffesional and scientific education. (that's because universiteit is quite a step over that. international naming conventions being the same, you end up with people like you telling us that 'universiteit is the same level as hbo', which is simply not the case. neither is a masters-degree of every country equivalent to the same level of education. that has never been the case, and it would be foolish to believe that, names being the same, the level of education would magically become equal.)

if you were to put an accurate 'tag' on the education-level of most education at a dutch universiteit, one would have to conclude that it is about the same as the higher standards university's, like harvard or oxford.

i presuming this, but i think in ireland one goes to any professional or scientific education after high school, by default. if that's the case, one would conclude that the're both hbo-level educational institutes. (i'm not going to cover the educational system between our 'basisschool' and hbo, which is far more complicated than in most countries). it's easier to get into a universiteit than it is to get in to e.g. oxford, because for most studies everyone with enough kwalifications (being a VWO-diploma, which is the highest form of 'high-school'-type education, a HBO-propedeuse or a colloquium doctum, in rare cases) is allowed. (some studies do have a limit on the numer of students, like 'geneeskunde' (medicinary studies, which gives us surgeons and the like). however, it is not the 'default' way-to-go; that would be hbo. if you want to be a desk clerk or another 'job', you'd do hbo. if you want to be a scientist (in the broadest scense, i'm not talking about people wearing white overall's all the time), do university.

to accentuate the difference, hbo-schools are NOT allowed to pass out MSc of MsA (master of science / master of arts) degrees. mostly, they just hand out other types of masters, like 'masters of bussines', which frankly are just terms they invented to make it seem as if you get a 'real' bachelor or master.

[Leshy]

MightyMarcel schreef op 29-09-2005 @ 09:57 :
to accentuate the difference, hbo-schools are NOT allowed to pass out MSc of MsA (master of science / master of arts) degrees. mostly, they just hand out other types of masters, like 'masters of bussines', which frankly are just terms they invented to make it seem as if you get a 'real' bachelor or master.

Additionally, this system has received several complaints over the past year or two.

Because graduating from an HBO grants you a Bachelor's Degree, you would expect to be able to continue on at university with a Master's Degree in the same field. However, universities have found that there is still quite a substantial difference between someone who has attained a Bachelor's Degree at an HBO, and one who has attained it at University level.

Another difference is that at an HBO, you go through the customary four years after which you receive a Bachelor's Degree, whereas at University you are eligible for your Bachelor's after a period of three years, and then can continue on to do a one- or two-year Master's degree. If you do not do the Master's Degree at university, you are still considered to be a University dropout, even though you might have a Bachelor's Degree.

This is mostly because the Master's Degree roughly coincides with the previous dutch title for one who has completed university, which was "doctorandus (drs.)" before the Bachelor-Master system was introduced. And, as stated by the previous poster, the only two "real" Master's degrees are the MSc and MA. Other ones are artificial titles designed to lessen the apparent gap between HBO and University level.

So yes, in the Netherlands a Bachelor's Degree does not have a University graduate level status, which is why an HBO and University are not considered to be of the same level, whereas in other countries the difference may be smaller.

I hope that somewhat clarified matters, rather than complicate them

[Femic]

Leannán schreef op 28-09-2005 @ 20:55 :
Because when I finish my bachelor degree, I will have exactly the same bachelor degree as the bachelor degree in Universiteit. Dutch people do not receive the same degree or what???

No you won't. You can't just get in to a master with a HBO bachelor degree, you'll have to do an extra so called 'schakeltraject'. (dunno the word in English)

Anyway, the degree I get is worth the same as a degree in Universiteit.

No it isn't, like ppl told you before and like I said.

[Kathleen]

Well, if in Holland there is a difference between HBO and university and in Ireland there is not, then obviously the Irish have a different definition of either HBO or University.

It's really not that difficult!

[Leshy]

Kathleen schreef op 29-09-2005 @ 13:36 :
It's really not that difficult!

It does get somewhat complicated when the whole point of the Bachelor-Master system was to introduce a standard measure to be used across Europe to determine the level of education.

And here we are with Bachelors and Masters that don't even correspond within the same country

[MightyMarcel]

Leshy schreef op 29-09-2005 @ 13:40 :
It does get somewhat complicated when the whole point of the Bachelor-Master system was to introduce a standard measure to be used across Europe to determine the level of education.

And here we are with Bachelors and Masters that don't even correspond within the same country

the BaMa system shouldn't have been incorporated for HBO-studies, that's why it seems complicated. however, giving only university-students such degrees would seem like devaluating hbo-diploma's, since the level of education of a dutch HBO is somewhat comparable to what most countries would call a university. another scenario that could have been realized was not just two degrees (Bachelor and Master), but a three-degree system, where a university master would have been the highest degree (apart from promovendi) and the university bachelor would have been worth the same as a hbo-master (which is near to current reality but not entirely true), and 'below' a hbo-master would have been a hbo-bachelor.
(actually, i just came up with four titles, in stead of three. and that is, frankly, about how the system is now : Uni Master, Uni Bachelor (comparable to a HBO master, but not quite), HBO master and HBO bachelor.)

[Makaveli]

I am currently doing a 'teacher'-education (i am a firstyear) which is HBO level. After 4 years i got a HBO Bachelor, which allowes me to teach VMBO 1-4 and HAVO/VWO 1-3. If i get my HBO Master, I will be able to teach all the 'High School'-levels. VMBO 1-4, HAVO 1-5 and VWO 1-6.

Because there are no 'teacher'-educations on the 'universiteit' the HBO Master is as much worth as the University Master in other countries.
It depends on the type of education, I think.

The BaMa system shouldn't have been incorporated at all. The purpose of the entire project was to incorporate the U.S./U.K. model in order to make the international educational system more uniform. However, the actual difference between a US and a Dutch BSc/MSc, is really big. Where students from the states stop their studies after their bachelor degree and only a very small percentage continues with a masters, dutch ALWAYS get their MSc. The educational systems are simply too different; the basis is too different.

[Leshy]

FuSe schreef op 29-09-2005 @ 16:15 :
The educational systems are simply too different; the basis is too different.

Not to mention the fact that attaining a BSc/BA at University A does not in any way mean you have the required knowledge to attend the MSc/MA program at university B.

Although I do applaud the attempts to make this a possibility in the future. Following a Bachelor's at one location and then being able to choose a number of Masters at a variety of locations in different countries seems like a pretty good initiative. It's just that the whole system is still pretty new - I reckon in a number of years things will smooth out quite a bit.

[MightyMarcel]

Makaveli schreef op 29-09-2005 @ 16:14 :
I am currently doing a 'teacher'-education (i am a firstyear) which is HBO level. After 4 years i got a HBO Bachelor, which allowes me to teach VMBO 1-4 and HAVO/VWO 1-3. If i get my HBO Master, I will be able to teach all the 'High School'-levels. VMBO 1-4, HAVO 1-5 and VWO 1-6.

Because there are no 'teacher'-educations on the 'universiteit' the HBO Master is as much worth as the University Master in other countries.
It depends on the type of education, I think.

there is no equivalent MSc for this study (PABO, toch ?), but there are educational masters for almost every BSc. These allow you to teach at any given level, in the area of your chosen study. (like, when studying philosophy, if you get a educational master, you are allowed to teach philosophy and corresponding courses at every type of education, even at a university.)

[MightyMarcel]

Leshy schreef op 29-09-2005 @ 16:20 :
Not to mention the fact that attaining a BSc/BA at University A does not in any way mean you have the required knowledge to attend the MSc/MA program at university B.

Well, if narrowed down to only dutch masters, they should 'connect' properly (Bsc and BA at uni A, then a master at uni B) properly as of now. (they don't, but they should and are going to, that's the whole point of the system.)

however, few people will switch between universities (and therefore, cities) in the last year of their study.

MightyMarcel schreef op 29-09-2005 @ 17:00 :
there is no equivalent MSc for this study (PABO, toch ?), but there are educational masters for almost every BSc. These allow you to teach at any given level, in the area of your chosen study. (like, when studying philosophy, if you get a educational master, you are allowed to teach philosophy and corresponding courses at every type of education, even at a university.)

VMBO en 1-3 havo/vwo lesgeven met PABO? Daar zul je toch echt tweedegraads lerarenopleiding voor nodig hebben, ook hbo .
Na de hbo lerarenopleiding kun je inderdaad een master doen die je eerstegraads docent maakt, zoals makali zegt. Je kunt ook een WO-opleiding doen die met een schoolvak te maken heeft en daarna een WO docentenmaster, dan ben je ook eerstegraads docent.

[Makaveli]

MightyMarcel schreef op 29-09-2005 @ 17:00 :
there is no equivalent MSc for this study (PABO, toch ?), but there are educational masters for almost every BSc. These allow you to teach at any given level, in the area of your chosen study. (like, when studying philosophy, if you get a educational master, you are allowed to teach philosophy and corresponding courses at every type of education, even at a university.)

No, It's called LERO. Not for 'basisschool'. You're right if I got a University Master (Economics for example), i am able to teach all economics-related subjects at VMBO till 'Universiteit'. But the problem is i never learned the teacher-things... (Vakdidactiek, pedagogiek)

x-spekkie-x schreef op 29-09-2005 @ 09:08 :
You are right

_{Maar als we toch gaan mierenneuken: het is secondary}

Ik wist dat ik het verkeerd had geschreven

[chris9 tje]

But the problem is i never learned the teacher-things... (Vakdidactiek, pedagogiek)

dat is ook een deel van de WO lerarenopleiding master.

[Levitating Nun]

It's not the same, it never will be, period. HBO's call themselves universities for foreigners (e.g. The University of INHolland, which is absolute bullshit).

[Kathleen]

Levitating Nun schreef op 29-09-2005 @ 18:23 :
It's not the same, it never will be, period. HBO's call themselves universities for foreigners (e.g. The University of INHolland, which is absolute bullshit).

Exactly! So if you think your HBO bachelor's degree is gonna be worth the same as a bachelor degree from a university you're in for a big disappointment (even abroad the Dutch diplomas are definitely nót equal).